Hey Undies and Empty Nipple kids, wanna go to Jetblue?

[Grimper]

Not picking sides but got to agree with PCL. The most important things that come form any accedent is the contributing factor that all of us should be looking at to avoid making the same mistake.
One of the contributing factors of 3701 was a very young and inexperienced F.O. This is an example of the huge risk to the aircraft and all on board while the new F.O. is learning the ropes and the PIC is flying single pilot. The more experienced the pilot is more likely they are to point out issues or discrepancy. An as far as bringing up the event being disrespectful. If I'm ever in an accident use it early and often as an example of what not to do.

 

[Grimper]

AEWANABE.. I agree 100%. There is no substuite for experance. Best of all worlds is CFI - check hauling - turbo prop - Jet.
All I'm saying is I would take some one who followed the proposed path over what PCL is hiring right now. What I didn't say but do believe is that if JB is trying to hire kids they are probably not going to follow the path as currently advertised. In the end it will probably more closely resemble the bridge programs that we are all saddled with at the regionals.

 

[Tomct]

Not when you've got a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears Humpty Diddle kids with SJS lining up to fly them for current rates.You seem not to understand what a B-fund is. You're thinking of A-funds. The guys at JetBlue only get a small 401k match.Mmmm, taste that kool-aid!You sure you aren't in management? You sound like a lot of middle-managers that I had to fight constantly to keep from firing pilots that didn't deserve it. The 5-year contract is nothing but an intimidation ploy.

By the way SWA does NOT have a B fund...and yes I know that they make a lot more money! But they have been in business for how long....35+ years!
I have already said that our rates need to get better, but let's face it, we are one of the highest paying airlines for first year rates. I hear from friends that the PVC will be going in for the pay raises. As I am sure you know, the JBPA will most likely pass.
You have a lot more experience at JB than any regional out there and to compare the two is a waste of time and not an equal comparison.

 

[ackattacker]

It's all probably moot. As several people have pointed out most Riddle Rats wouldn't take it anyway...

Look at it from the perspective of WHY all involved signed on for this program (Riddle, Cape Air, JB).

Riddle wants the program because they can't hold onto their CFI's. They work 1 month and then go yank gear on a jet. Under this program they stay around a LOT longer.

Cape Air wants the program because they can't hire or hold onto their pilots. They're all yanking gear on a jet somewhere. Under this program they lock them in for 2 years.

JB wants the program... well, people have already covered that! I suppose if somebody goes through all that to get a job at JB, they must really want it!

As for whether Cape Air pilots would be a liability in the cockpit... I have to laugh. Frankly if a 400 hour pilot with wet ink on his commercial certificate can be an FO on the ERJ then I fail to see how a 2500 hour Cape Air pilot is such a problem on the E190. Or is everybody saying that the regionals are safe because they have *better* training than JetBlue? So putting someone with no jet time at JetBlue is unsafe but putting them at, say, Eagle is OK?

There may be many reasons to not like this program but I think safety is a red herring. I think certain people are upset at the idea that somebody can get to JetBlue without whoring themselves out at a $19k/year regional.

 

[aewanabe]

As for whether Cape Air pilots would be a liability in the cockpit... I have to laugh. Frankly if a 400 hour pilot with wet ink on his commercial certificate can be an FO on the ERJ then I fail to see how a 2500 hour Cape Air pilot is such a problem on the E190. Or is everybody saying that the regionals are safe because they have *better* training than JetBlue? So putting someone with no jet time at JetBlue is unsafe but putting them at, say, Eagle is OK?

There may be many reasons to not like this program but I think safety is a red herring. I think certain people are upset at the idea that somebody can get to JetBlue without whoring themselves out at a $19k/year regional.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the motives of the various commercial parties involved.

As to safety, I stand by my comments. No offense intended to anyone involved, but I speak with a pretty broad perspective having spent time in pretty much all the positions involved. I challenge anyone to show how putting a 2500-hour all piston-time pilot in the right seat of the jet IMPROVES safety. And while JBs training is pretty good, it pre-assumes a level of knowledge and experience that just won't be present here.

BTW there are plenty of ways to get going at JB other than the proverbial 19K regional. My class was mostly RJ captains, but included military transport/heavy drivers and corporate captains. The class behind me had refugees from OMNI and Gemini, etc...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Has JB changed mins? A year and half ago my buddy with PIC turboprop time couldn't get a JB interview all while he has offers from FX and SWA.....

So why is it PIC Part 121 turboprop time isn't as good as this new JB pipeline program?

 

[ackattacker]

BTW there are plenty of ways to get going at JB other than the proverbial 19K regional. My class was mostly RJ captains, but included military transport/heavy drivers and corporate captains. The class behind me had refugees from OMNI and Gemini, etc...

Point well taken.

I suppose one way to define level of safety is by the overall experience level of the pilot group. However that cuts both ways. If hiring slightly "down" (not that I'm conceding that BTW) cuts into safety then if JetBlue was truly safety oriented they would only hire the MOST experienced pilots. Perhaps they should only hire 10,000 hour FedEx pilots. If they paid enough they could...

Observation: Most pilots define anybody less qualified than themselves as underqualifed.

Ultimately airlines generally try to hire the most qualified people they can attract. There's the rub... that they can attract. JetBlue lowering it's mins is an acknowledgement that they aren't attracting the level of qualifications they were, and rather than raise the pay they will simply lower the bar.

JetBlue's hiring minimums are already only 1500 hours, 500 PIC, with NO turbine requirement. I know that's not the competitive minimums, but still, that's the minimum. I dare say that if things keep going the way they are, 2 years from now when/if these Cape Air flowthrough people show up they might be the MOST qualified in their class...

 

[aewanabe]

Rez- yes the minimums have changed; the 20K weight requirement has been dropped.

Ackattacker- hiring those they can attract is indeed the rub. Most of us already at JB strongly suspect/fear that indeed the bar is being lowered pre-emptively to avoid the all-important raising of the pay. At any rate please don't take my comments as bashing of single-pilot 402 drivers; rather I'm strongly suspicious of any program meant to "streamline" the path into a job that is supposed to be a career destination.

 

[FADEC]

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

PCL-128, you have a negative opinion on everything. It was okay for you to spend thousands at Gulfstream to get your 250 hours turbine so that you could advance your career but it is wrong for these kids to advance to an airline after having flown single pilot in the northeast for 2 plus years. When you paid for training you were inexperienced and probably dangerous flying part 121 passengers but that was totally acceptable to you.

 

[PCL_128]

And while JBs training is pretty good, it pre-assumes a level of knowledge and experience that just won't be present here.

Exactly! JetBlue is a major airline. As such, the training department assumes that their pilots have a base level of knowledge that a pilot with only piston experience simply doesn't have. If there weren't thousands of RJ Captains out there looking for career employment, then this program might make sense. But with so many experienced, qualified Captains out there, this program is transparently about nothing more than providing a steady stream of kool-aid drinkers with SJS rather than having to raise the compensation, benefits, and work rules to attract qualified applicants.