Hey Undies and Empty Nipple kids, wanna go to Jetblue?

[aewanabe]

I haven't met a single person here who is happy about this, other than management of course. There are still plenty of qualified pilots who want to come work here; the problem is a kid who graduated Empty-Nipple then flew a 402 for a couple years is likely to think flying a 190 for 43K is a dream job. On the other hand, guys who instructed, flew freight, then spent years slogging it out in the regionals might actually think our skills are worth more, and vote with our feet if the compensation improvements aren't forthcoming.

 

[John Pennekamp]

On the other hand, guys who instructed, flew freight, then spent years slogging it out in the regionals might actually think our skills are worth more, and vote with our feet if the compensation improvements aren't forthcoming.

In case you haven't noticed, pilots that worked their way up like that (as we did) are few and far between these days. These Generation Y (me) kids these days have always had everything handed to them and appreciate nothing. Why should this be any different?

 

[ackattacker]

Take a closer look at the program. These are not going to be 400 hour wonder kids moving straight to JetBlue... Cape air already requires 1500 hours and an ATP to fly the 402 as PIC. So the graduates first have to instruct for a respectable time and THEN fly the 402 for 2 years before being considered. Not such an easy path. In fact it is probably faster to just go to Mesa or Colgan with your 250 hours and then apply to JetBlue after 2 years. I guess that's "slogging it out" but instructing and flying a 402 is the path of the lazy...

 

[CX880]

Take a closer look at the program. These are not going to be 400 hour wonder kids moving straight to JetBlue... Cape air already requires 1500 hours and an ATP to fly the 402 as PIC. So the graduates first have to instruct for a respectable time and THEN fly the 402 for 2 years before being considered. Not such an easy path. In fact it is probably faster to just go to Mesa or Colgan with your 250 hours and then apply to JetBlue after 2 years. I guess that's "slogging it out" but instructing and flying a 402 is the path of the lazy...

You're, right in fact this program is doomed to fail. No respectable Dribbler would be willing to go so far low as to fly a prop. After spending mom's money on FMS classes and Flying Jets 101, nothing less than a jet will suffice.

 

[Whataburger]

Disclaimer: I did not go to either of these schools.

Without pointing fingers, I would rather have a pilot with 2000K hrs flying 402s than pilots with other backgrounds. The days of "paying dues" has come and gone. Slogging it out on the east coast for a while in a prop is about the most "dues paying" you will see now-a-days.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You're, right in fact this program is doomed to fail. No respectable Dribbler would be willing to go so far low as to fly a prop. After spending mom's money on FMS classes and Flying Jets 101, nothing less than a jet will suffice.

Exactly. Besides, they have to bust their asses for two BOS winters at Cape just to be eligible for a final interview at JBLU? Like you said, they'll just take their 300 hours to ASA and fly that Shiny Jet.

 

[CX880]

JB and ER should put a second option, which would be to buy, they'd probably have more luck with that. I'd be amusing just how low people will go for to fly A320.

 

[aewanabe]

Take a closer look at the program. These are not going to be 400 hour wonder kids moving straight to JetBlue... Cape air already requires 1500 hours and an ATP to fly the 402 as PIC. So the graduates first have to instruct for a respectable time and THEN fly the 402 for 2 years before being considered. Not such an easy path. In fact it is probably faster to just go to Mesa or Colgan with your 250 hours and then apply to JetBlue after 2 years. I guess that's "slogging it out" but instructing and flying a 402 is the path of the lazy...

I plead guilty to not scruitinizing the program requirements closely enough. I also have massive respect for the Cape Air guys and gals, and agree that flying a 402 through the crappy NE weather is great experience. I still believe that the end product of such a program is a pilot with no turbine experience who is competitive for JB and nowhere else; that guy/gal will not likely be competitive for NW/DL, UA, CO, Netjets, etc.. and therefore is much less likely to bitch about our compensation structure. This is even more true since coming from Cape Air's 402 left seat to JB's 190 right seat is still a pay raise, whereas RJ captains and military bubbas are taking a significant initial cut to come here- with the full expectation of seeing gains in the future. YMMV, but bottom line most of us see this program as management getting younger, more compliant guys in the new-hire seats.

 

[PCL_128]

Disclaimer: I did not go to either of these schools.


Without pointing fingers, I would rather have a pilot with 2000K hrs flying 402s than pilots with other backgrounds. The days of "paying dues" has come and gone. Slogging it out on the east coast for a while in a prop is about the most "dues paying" you will see now-a-days.

I agree that flying 402s in the Northeast is great experience, but do you really want someone in the right seat of your 175,000 lb jet that has never flown anything bigger than a light twin Cessna?

 

[Tomct]

If they're having trouble getting experienced pilots to apply, then they need to raise EMB pay, get a real B-fund retirement plan, and get rid of those insulting five year employment contracts. Creating some program with Humpty-Diddle while there are still thousands of qualified RJ Captains out there is ridiculous.

Emb pay will come up, but get a B plan...yeah, those have worked out so well for everyone else. According to my friends over there the 5 yr. contract is actually a good thing, especially when it comes to possible mergers. (Mohawk Merger Protection) It seems to me that if the contract is up and they see that some idiot got through their process, then they could get rid of them and move on. Unlike airlines that some of the JackAsses slip through the process and are now stuck to the bottom of the carrier's shoe like a Bad piece of gum. If the "experienced" rj guy wants a job...THEN APPLY! Not Jetblue's problem if they don't because they are waiting around to get hired by a legacy that will then fulough them a short time later. There are some ugly things on the horizon for everyone...and it ain't goin to be pretty. Heaven Help US!:erm:

 

[Tomct]

I agree that flying 402s in the Northeast is great experience, but do you really want someone in the right seat of your 175,000 lb jet that has never flown anything bigger than a light twin Cessna?

That's like saying if you have never flown a heavy don't bother applying to Gemini or World. Let's face it PCL, flying a bigger airplane is NOT THAT BIG OF DEAL! You sound like some of those pompouse Delta Captains that are appalled with new hires going to the ER...because it is such a "Big Deal" to fly a 767. Give me a freakin break and get over yourself's. An airplane is an airplane. And hey...they can also do what every other legacy pilot in the world does....WIND CHECK!!! YGTBSM with your comment. How can you compare flying an RJ to flying a 737 or A320. Not even CLOSE in weight! H3ll, even the CRJ700 only weighted 75,000 lbs.(MTOW) 100K off of an A320. Come On Man...

 

[On Your Six]

I agree that flying 402s in the Northeast is great experience, but do you really want someone in the right seat of your 175,000 lb jet that has never flown anything bigger than a light twin Cessna?

Trans States is hiring kids with 300-400 hours total and 50 hours multi onto the E145. High performance jet like the Airbus/E190 just fewer seats.

 

[PCL_128]

Emb pay will come up,

Not when you've got a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears Humpty Diddle kids with SJS lining up to fly them for current rates.

but get a B plan...yeah, those have worked out so well for everyone else.

You seem not to understand what a B-fund is. You're thinking of A-funds. The guys at JetBlue only get a small 401k match.

According to my friends over there the 5 yr. contract is actually a good thing

Mmmm, taste that kool-aid!

It seems to me that if the contract is up and they see that some idiot got through their process, then they could get rid of them and move on. Unlike airlines that some of the JackAsses slip through the process and are now stuck to the bottom of the carrier's shoe like a Bad piece of gum.

You sure you aren't in management? You sound like a lot of middle-managers that I had to fight constantly to keep from firing pilots that didn't deserve it. The 5-year contract is nothing but an intimidation ploy.

 

[PCL_128]

Trans States is hiring kids with 300-400 hours total and 50 hours multi onto the E145. High performance jet like the Airbus/E190 just fewer seats.

And you think that's a good thing? Remember, I came from the airline that had a high-publicity crash that was the result of two guys who didn't understand why a swept-wing jet couldn't climb to FL410 on a hot day. Putting inexperienced kids into high-performance jets without the proper training isn't a good idea. JetBlue is a major airline. I seriously doubt that they spend the time in ground school teaching their newhires the basics of jet aerodynamics, and they shouldn't have to.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And you think that's a good thing? Remember, I came from the airline that had a high-publicity crash that was the result of two guys who didn't understand why a swept-wing jet couldn't climb to FL410 on a hot day. Putting inexperienced kids into high-performance jets without the proper training isn't a good idea. JetBlue is a major airline. I seriously doubt that they spend the time in ground school teaching their newhires the basics of jet aerodynamics, and they shouldn't have to.

FWIW, that crash occurred not because they didn't understand swept wing aerodynamic, but rather because they didn't understand that you can out climb your cruise capability due to the physics of thrust angle and lift. And the problem wasn't that the CRJ-200 is a "high performance jet" in inexperienced hands, but rather a low performance jet which is significantly underpowered, thus leading to the aforementioned scenario.

Regardless, it's pretty tasteless for you to use that crash to make a point.

 

[PCL_128]

And the problem wasn't that the CRJ-200 is a "high performance jet" in inexperienced hands, but rather a low performance jet which is significantly underpowered, thus leading to the aforementioned scenario.

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.

Regardless, it's pretty tasteless for you to use that crash to make a point.

I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

 

[Grimper]

If the ER kids have to go threw any process that involves them having to build the time for 135 mins and then fly 500-1000 hours as a single pilot PIC at Cape Air I'll take them for an F.O. in any jet I'm PIC of. A 1000 hr of single pilot all weather fly is a PHD in judgment. The best part is it's pure Darwin. Those who fail the program will never have a chance try again.
The down side for JetBlue. They will have turned them selves into a stepping stone for better jobs.
Anyone who actually follows that path to completion will be a very competitive applicant for many better jobs. They will have the jet time our RJ crews have with the experience and judgment many of our RJ captains lack.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

About as bad as Polenhanke using the passengers contributory negligence as a dismissal for the lawsuits after the CMR crash. And as tasteless as you bringing this crash up, then continuing to argue the point from a very bad position. But since you want to go there, the two PCL pilots were acting careless and reckless. And possibly suffering hypoxia. Even if the company taught them better, they still would have done it because they were screwing around. Who would have thought you could stall an empty airplane at 410, even knowing about high altitude aero? It IS certified there, after all.

Again, thanks for bringing this up. Now let's get back to the topic.

 

[aewanabe]

That's like saying if you have never flown a heavy don't bother applying to Gemini or World. Let's face it PCL, flying a bigger airplane is NOT THAT BIG OF DEAL! You sound like some of those pompouse Delta Captains that are appalled with new hires going to the ER...because it is such a "Big Deal" to fly a 767. Give me a freakin break and get over yourself's. An airplane is an airplane. And hey...they can also do what every other legacy pilot in the world does....WIND CHECK!!! YGTBSM with your comment. How can you compare flying an RJ to flying a 737 or A320. Not even CLOSE in weight! H3ll, even the CRJ700 only weighted 75,000 lbs.(MTOW) 100K off of an A320. Come On Man...

Personal experience only: I had .4 jet time before going to CHQ, and although I considered myself experienced at handling high-workloads (I had 2k total, 600 multi, and lots of single-pilot night-freight time), I didn't know squat about how to truly fly and manage jet airplanes. My first few captains (and probably some of my later FOs, ha) were definitely CFIs whether or not they wanted to be.

5 years later, as a new E190 pilot, my 3k+ time of 145 time means my Captains don't have to teach me how to fly a jet. I've still had to learn about JB procedures, and energy management in an aircraft literally twice as big as the last one, etc... None of it is rocket science, but I look back at my 2000-hour all piston-experience self, and see that I would be a far bigger burden on the other guy in the cockpit. The general expectation at this level of aviation is that the other guy in the cockpit is supposed to be an asset.

Overall the guy with 2500 hours of 402 and CFI time isn't going to be the same asset in a 114k jet, and isn't likely to have the ability to walk out the door to UPS, DL, Airtran, or anywhere else if he/she doesn't like the deal here. That's how many of us see this. As far as we can tell, there are plenty of RJ captains and military pilots still applying here, but management would love to have some newbies that are a little more, uh, captive.

Grimper: I totally agree about the judgement part, but still think there's relative experience these guys are missing that would be beneficial in a larger jet. By the way, JB is in danger of CURRENTLY being a stepping-stone job. (Disclaimer.. I like the company and really want things to work out here). If I decide that compensation improvements or other conditions are not worth my time at JB, I've got far more ability to take my type-rating, turbine PIC time, etc. somewhere else than a kid with only an SIC type and NO turbine PIC. This is what many of us are afraid is really the motive behind this program.

PS Jetblue does a short refresher course on high-altitude and jet aerodynamics that is far more info than Chautauqua was teaching when I left... scary, huh?

 

[PCL_128]

but I look back at my 2000-hour all piston-experience self, and see that I would be a far bigger burden on the other guy in the cockpit. The general expectation at this level of aviation is that the other guy in the cockpit is supposed to be an asset.


Overall the guy with 2500 hours of 402 and CFI time isn't going to be the same asset in a 114k jet.

Bingo! Well said.

 

[Grimper]

Not picking sides but got to agree with PCL. The most important things that come form any accedent is the contributing factor that all of us should be looking at to avoid making the same mistake.
One of the contributing factors of 3701 was a very young and inexperienced F.O. This is an example of the huge risk to the aircraft and all on board while the new F.O. is learning the ropes and the PIC is flying single pilot. The more experienced the pilot is more likely they are to point out issues or discrepancy. An as far as bringing up the event being disrespectful. If I'm ever in an accident use it early and often as an example of what not to do.

 

[Grimper]

AEWANABE.. I agree 100%. There is no substuite for experance. Best of all worlds is CFI - check hauling - turbo prop - Jet.
All I'm saying is I would take some one who followed the proposed path over what PCL is hiring right now. What I didn't say but do believe is that if JB is trying to hire kids they are probably not going to follow the path as currently advertised. In the end it will probably more closely resemble the bridge programs that we are all saddled with at the regionals.

 

[Tomct]

Not when you've got a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears Humpty Diddle kids with SJS lining up to fly them for current rates.You seem not to understand what a B-fund is. You're thinking of A-funds. The guys at JetBlue only get a small 401k match.Mmmm, taste that kool-aid!You sure you aren't in management? You sound like a lot of middle-managers that I had to fight constantly to keep from firing pilots that didn't deserve it. The 5-year contract is nothing but an intimidation ploy.

By the way SWA does NOT have a B fund...and yes I know that they make a lot more money! But they have been in business for how long....35+ years!
I have already said that our rates need to get better, but let's face it, we are one of the highest paying airlines for first year rates. I hear from friends that the PVC will be going in for the pay raises. As I am sure you know, the JBPA will most likely pass.
You have a lot more experience at JB than any regional out there and to compare the two is a waste of time and not an equal comparison.

 

[ackattacker]

It's all probably moot. As several people have pointed out most Riddle Rats wouldn't take it anyway...

Look at it from the perspective of WHY all involved signed on for this program (Riddle, Cape Air, JB).

Riddle wants the program because they can't hold onto their CFI's. They work 1 month and then go yank gear on a jet. Under this program they stay around a LOT longer.

Cape Air wants the program because they can't hire or hold onto their pilots. They're all yanking gear on a jet somewhere. Under this program they lock them in for 2 years.

JB wants the program... well, people have already covered that! I suppose if somebody goes through all that to get a job at JB, they must really want it!

As for whether Cape Air pilots would be a liability in the cockpit... I have to laugh. Frankly if a 400 hour pilot with wet ink on his commercial certificate can be an FO on the ERJ then I fail to see how a 2500 hour Cape Air pilot is such a problem on the E190. Or is everybody saying that the regionals are safe because they have *better* training than JetBlue? So putting someone with no jet time at JetBlue is unsafe but putting them at, say, Eagle is OK?

There may be many reasons to not like this program but I think safety is a red herring. I think certain people are upset at the idea that somebody can get to JetBlue without whoring themselves out at a $19k/year regional.

 

[aewanabe]

As for whether Cape Air pilots would be a liability in the cockpit... I have to laugh. Frankly if a 400 hour pilot with wet ink on his commercial certificate can be an FO on the ERJ then I fail to see how a 2500 hour Cape Air pilot is such a problem on the E190. Or is everybody saying that the regionals are safe because they have *better* training than JetBlue? So putting someone with no jet time at JetBlue is unsafe but putting them at, say, Eagle is OK?

There may be many reasons to not like this program but I think safety is a red herring. I think certain people are upset at the idea that somebody can get to JetBlue without whoring themselves out at a $19k/year regional.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the motives of the various commercial parties involved.

As to safety, I stand by my comments. No offense intended to anyone involved, but I speak with a pretty broad perspective having spent time in pretty much all the positions involved. I challenge anyone to show how putting a 2500-hour all piston-time pilot in the right seat of the jet IMPROVES safety. And while JBs training is pretty good, it pre-assumes a level of knowledge and experience that just won't be present here.

BTW there are plenty of ways to get going at JB other than the proverbial 19K regional. My class was mostly RJ captains, but included military transport/heavy drivers and corporate captains. The class behind me had refugees from OMNI and Gemini, etc...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Has JB changed mins? A year and half ago my buddy with PIC turboprop time couldn't get a JB interview all while he has offers from FX and SWA.....

So why is it PIC Part 121 turboprop time isn't as good as this new JB pipeline program?

 

[ackattacker]

BTW there are plenty of ways to get going at JB other than the proverbial 19K regional. My class was mostly RJ captains, but included military transport/heavy drivers and corporate captains. The class behind me had refugees from OMNI and Gemini, etc...

Point well taken.

I suppose one way to define level of safety is by the overall experience level of the pilot group. However that cuts both ways. If hiring slightly "down" (not that I'm conceding that BTW) cuts into safety then if JetBlue was truly safety oriented they would only hire the MOST experienced pilots. Perhaps they should only hire 10,000 hour FedEx pilots. If they paid enough they could...

Observation: Most pilots define anybody less qualified than themselves as underqualifed.

Ultimately airlines generally try to hire the most qualified people they can attract. There's the rub... that they can attract. JetBlue lowering it's mins is an acknowledgement that they aren't attracting the level of qualifications they were, and rather than raise the pay they will simply lower the bar.

JetBlue's hiring minimums are already only 1500 hours, 500 PIC, with NO turbine requirement. I know that's not the competitive minimums, but still, that's the minimum. I dare say that if things keep going the way they are, 2 years from now when/if these Cape Air flowthrough people show up they might be the MOST qualified in their class...

 

[aewanabe]

Rez- yes the minimums have changed; the 20K weight requirement has been dropped.

Ackattacker- hiring those they can attract is indeed the rub. Most of us already at JB strongly suspect/fear that indeed the bar is being lowered pre-emptively to avoid the all-important raising of the pay. At any rate please don't take my comments as bashing of single-pilot 402 drivers; rather I'm strongly suspicious of any program meant to "streamline" the path into a job that is supposed to be a career destination.

 

[FADEC]

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

PCL-128, you have a negative opinion on everything. It was okay for you to spend thousands at Gulfstream to get your 250 hours turbine so that you could advance your career but it is wrong for these kids to advance to an airline after having flown single pilot in the northeast for 2 plus years. When you paid for training you were inexperienced and probably dangerous flying part 121 passengers but that was totally acceptable to you.

 

[PCL_128]

And while JBs training is pretty good, it pre-assumes a level of knowledge and experience that just won't be present here.

Exactly! JetBlue is a major airline. As such, the training department assumes that their pilots have a base level of knowledge that a pilot with only piston experience simply doesn't have. If there weren't thousands of RJ Captains out there looking for career employment, then this program might make sense. But with so many experienced, qualified Captains out there, this program is transparently about nothing more than providing a steady stream of kool-aid drinkers with SJS rather than having to raise the compensation, benefits, and work rules to attract qualified applicants.