Here we go FedEx guys...

[VaB]

ok frankfurt (eddf). still only 10 hr flying and 14 hr day. fedex1 was pulling the fatigue card out? how long is the stop in ewr? 3 hrs? just looks like a routine day to me.

The point was, that someone smarter than you or me (well, me anyway), deemed it a disputed pairing and, therefore, shouldn't be flown voluntarily. As far as being an easy flight, I haven't flown any of the disputed pairings, so I don't know personally. That particular one does look painful though.

Probably some treacherous, scumbag, traitorous, cheap, loser non-member, but I'm sure he has a good reason.

 

[semperfido]

probably smarter than me as well. i was just trying to figure out why fedex1 would file some kind of fatigue complaint. routine does not mean easy.

 

[FedEx1]

Well, if you want to do it then go right ahead. Here it is.. Some of the pairings only get 24 hours off in Frankfurt before flying around again. (Hard to catch up in 24- 36 is better to sleep twice.) Problem is, the leg from EWR to FRA is short- maybe 5.5 hours a cruise for rest- so divide by three pilots, you get to sleep less than 2 hours over the pond. So, considering you got up around 0130 to be at work at 0230... and you won't get into FRA until after 3 pm Memphis time... that's pretty hard. well, it kinda sucks, right?? Factor in pond crossing data input, etc... no rest in EWR.
SHPM15 X 13OCT05 MEM-MEM 0233 0248 100 0233 0248 100 0038 13OCT05 MEM-EWR 0348 0711 223 143 BH/DH 0038 13OCT05 EWR-FRA 0854 2203 709

 

[TonyC]

ok frankfurt (eddf). still only 10 hr flying and 14 hr day. fedex1 was pulling the fatigue card out? how long is the stop in ewr? 3 hrs? just looks like a routine day to me.imp:

He used the IATA airport identifier - - that's not that uncommon in international flying.

10 hours of block (using you number, I haven't looked at the pairing) requires a third crewmember. We use an RFO, or Relief First Officer. None of the three can be scheduled for more that 8 hours of flight deck duty. I'm sure you knew that. For a single 10-hour leg, each person would get about 3+20 rest and 6+40 duty if it was divided equally. Since all three crewmembers are required to be on the flight deck for takeoffs and descent and landing, the duty times go up and the rest times go down. Realistically, each crewmember could expect to get about 3 hours of rest, free from flight deck duty.

10 hours of block spread across two legs presents a more difficult scenario. In addition to the 20 man-hours required in the window seats, the RFO is required for 2 takeoffs, 2 descents and landings. Whereas the one leg required about 21 man-hours, the 2-leg scenario requires about 22. Mathematically, that gives each crewmember about 2+40 rest time. The problem is, there's not enough cruise time in the second leg for more than 2 people to get that rest, if that, and the first leg is not conducive to anybody getting rest at all. Ultimately, then, the crew arrives at the final destination having neared the maximum flying limit and perhaps having exceeded the 8 hour flying scheduling limit (can't be scheduled for more than 8, doesn't mean you might not exceed 8), having neared the maximum duty day, and having spanned a third of the time zones with little break from duty.

Three questions: Is it legal? Is it safe? Is it smart?

Yes.

No.

No.




.

 

[semperfido]

He used the IATA airport identifier - - that's not that uncommon in international flying.

i have never used iata idents.

10 hours of block (using you number

i was just guestimating - my bad

, I haven't looked at the pairing) requires a third crewmember. We use an RFO, or Relief First Officer. None of the three can be scheduled for more that 8 hours of flight deck duty. I'm sure you knew that.

no, i didn't know that as i fly under a different far part. not familiar with p121 int'l regs

For a single 10-hour leg, each person would get about 3+20 rest and 6+40 duty if it was divided equally. Since all three crewmembers are required to be on the flight deck for takeoffs and descent and landing, the duty times go up and the rest times go down. Realistically, each crewmember could expect to get about 3 hours of rest, free from flight deck duty.

10 hours of block spread across two legs presents a more difficult scenario. In addition to the 20 man-hours required in the window seats, the RFO is required for 2 takeoffs, 2 descents and landings. Whereas the one leg required about 21 man-hours, the 2-leg scenario requires about 22. Mathematically, that gives each crewmember about 2+40 rest time. The problem is, there's not enough cruise time in the second leg for more than 2 people to get that rest, if that, and the first leg is not conducive to anybody getting rest at all. Ultimately, then, the crew arrives at the final destination having neared the maximum flying limit and perhaps having exceeded the 8 hour flying scheduling limit (can't be scheduled for more than 8, doesn't mean you might not exceed 8), having neared the maximum duty day, and having spanned a third of the time zones with little break from duty.

come on tony, --i think three guys should be able to get an acft from kmem to kewr to eddf without saying it is unsafe due to fatigue. it aint that much flying or duty. you may be tired, but not unsafe due to fatigue. 2nd leg each guy gets a 2hr break (3 would be better, but 2 hrs is ok) as it is probably only a 7 hr flight.

Three questions: Is it legal? Is it safe? Is it smart?




.

yes, yes , i would rather sit at home but it is called work for a reason

 

[FedEx1]

Well, I had this big speech prepared to try to explain 2 legs on the backside of the clock with only 1:40 of rest for each pilot (You won't get 2 hours each on a 7 hour leg- all three required up from from TOC to BOD, plus getting stuff organized coasting out.).... cause Fido still doesn't quite get it. (Sorry man.)

But it wasn't worth it. It is a lot of flying (or 3 pilots wouldnt be required.) It is a lot of duty- duty that started at 0230 and goes for 13 hours. Exactly. Hmmm, familiar number Fedex guys?? Funny how it worked out that way. It is unsafe.

Your decision making abilities and reaction times are severely impaired when tired, and flying against your natural circadian rhythm. No matter how much sleep you got before the trip. "Managing" to get through it shouldn't be good enough. And FRA is a big pain to fly into sometimes, too.

I don't want to sit at home. I would just like a rest period in EWR on this pairing is all. The money they would save by leaving the RFO at home would pay for the layover and extra duty time for the 2 crew emebers.

And this pairing is in the November bid pack, too.

Oops, guess I did the big speech anyway.

 

[semperfido]

Well, I had this big speech prepared to try to explain 2 legs on the backside of the clock with only 1:40 of rest for each pilot (You won't get 2 hours each on a 7 hour leg- all three required up from from TOC to BOD, plus getting stuff organized coasting out.).... cause Fido still doesn't quite get it. (Sorry man.)

But it wasn't worth it. It is a lot of flying (or 3 pilots wouldnt be required.) It is a lot of duty- duty that started at 0230 and goes for 13 hours. Exactly. Hmmm, familiar number Fedex guys?? Funny how it worked out that way. It is unsafe.

Your decision making abilities and reaction times are severely impaired when tired, and flying against your natural circadian rhythm. No matter how much sleep you got before the trip. "Managing" to get through it shouldn't be good enough. And FRA is a big pain to fly into sometimes, too.

I don't want to sit at home. I would just like a rest period in EWR on this pairing is all. The money they would save by leaving the RFO at home would pay for the layover and extra duty time for the 2 crew emebers.

And this pairing is in the November bid pack, too.

Oops, guess I did the big speech anyway.

ok, i'm saying "uncle", but i do get it--maybe not from a fedex pilot perspective. it does make sense to break the trip in two, if you can. obviously, fedex could. took me 3-4 days to recover from my last china adventure.

 

[FedEx1]

That recovery may have been due to your non flying activites! But who knows.

Anyway, just looking at that trip again (then I promise, no more!) There are some pairings that return to the US- one leg to EWR with a layover. Then one leg to MEM. So they do it westbound.

At least it ain't GFK, eh Tony!

Ok, back in my cave.

 

[semperfido]

That recovery may have been due to your non flying activites! But who knows.

i wish. flying every day for 12 days. starting at 8am local (7pm back home) might have had something to do with it.:beer: