Help our counterparts in ATC

[dardar]

Uh, most Euro-weenie country's have privatized ATC. Their controllers are considered moderately skilled techinical workers, at best, and are paid way way way WAY less than their US counterparts.

Feel unsafe flying in the EU? No? Nor should you. Pay has nothing to do with either safety or quality when it comes to ATC.

Same goes for pilots.

We are moderately skilled technical workers, at best.

Feel unsafe flying in the EU? No? Nor should you. Experience has nothing to do with either safety or quality when it comes to pilots.

 

[Hold West]

Same goes for pilots.

We are moderately skilled technical workers, at best.

Feel unsafe flying in the EU? No? Nor should you. Experience has nothing to do with either safety or quality when it comes to pilots.

Well, unless you consider that little MID-AIR COLLISION in 2002 over Überlingen a problem, the erosion of safety in Europe is no problem at all.

Read Don Brown's Avweb column about the whole affair there, he says it so much better than I ever could.

Feel unsafe flying in the EU?

Yup. In Europe, I take the train.

Experience has nothing to do with either safety or quality when it comes to pilots.

A lot of people disagree with you. I am probably the least among them.

 

[Bringupthebird]

In my humble opinion, let them deal with their own problems.

You're coming dangerously close to a copyright infringement from Duane Woerth!

And while I'm anti-ALPA based on their recent tactics or lack of, I am pro-solidarity among those in this profession and support their efforts to keep the profession from collapsing.

Soverytedious needs to call Rush Limbaugh (a union member, by the way) this Friday and get his marching orders on this subject.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Y'all, I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading here. Either y'all are too young to remember or were in a drug induced haze back in 1982? When Reagan fired the controllers? Do any of you remember the chaos that created?

The controllers are good people who do a service for the US people. They are worth every penny because they (like every other union group) get what they negotiatate. Don't be sitting here knocking them down for making too much money, working too little, or "raping the US citizens". I have news for you... the average US citizen thinks the same about pilots, and don't tell me for one minute that you don't mind it or want to volunteer for a pay cut.

I've been watching the chaos here in 'da ATL as this dispute has heated up. I've noticed the increased holding, increased in trail separation, the "inability" to position and hold at certain times. Yes, it's frustrating to some people, but some of us find it funny. They're stickin' it to the Man. If the FAA is too stupid to remember what happened 25 years ago, then they may be doomed to repeat history. Back up your controllers or you won't be flying anywhere.

 

[pilotmyf]

You're coming dangerously close to a copyright infringement from Duane Woerth!

My face can't support a Woerth moustache

 

[scar1900]

I don't know about the rest of the region, but the guys at DCA don't make nearly enough. Like the PGA tour, "these guys are good."

 

[Hold West]

I've been watching the chaos here in 'da ATL as this dispute has heated up. I've noticed the increased holding, increased in trail separation, the "inability" to position and hold at certain times. Yes, it's frustrating to some people, but some of us find it funny. They're stickin' it to the Man. If the FAA is too stupid to remember what happened 25 years ago, then they may be doomed to repeat history. Back up your controllers or you won't be flying anywhere.

The funny part is that what you mention has pretty much nothing to to with any kind of job action by controllers (Editorial note: Job actions, slowdowns, strikes, etc. are illegal under 5 USC 7120, and are not condoned by omission or commission by NATCA or me!)

Back in March, the FAA in its wisdom placed sudden and severe restrictions on taxi in position and hold (TIPH) operations. Part of the GENOT is reproduced below. At the time, controllers in towers all over the country told the FAA this was going to back traffic up a lot. I suspect, since you specifically mention the inability to do TIPH, that a lot of what you are seeing is the result of restricting TIPH. I am chuckling to myself over this issue, though it's not really funny at all - anything with a negative effect on the NAS offends me personally. But, we told 'em so.

Read John Carr's blog, "The Main Bang", and search for TIPH for more and better.

GENOT RWA 6/14 SVC B

PLEASE AMEND FAAO 7210.3U AS FOLLOWS: (ADD) PARAGRAPH 10-3-8, TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH) OPERATIONS
A. THE AT MANAGER MUST DETERMINE AN OPERATIONAL NEED EXISTS BEFORE CONDUCTING TIPH OPERATIONS, TO INCLUDE SUCH FACTORS AS CAPACITY, EFFICIENCY, USER INPUT, ETC.
B. BEFORE AUTHORIZING TIPH OPERATIONS AS SPECIFIED IN FAA ORDER 7110.65, THE AT MANAGER MUST ENSURE THE FOLLOWING:

1. REVIEW THE IMPACT THAT AIRPORT CONFIGURATION AND LOCAL CONDITIONS MAY HAVE ON THE APPLICATION OF TIPH PROCEDURES.
2. PREPARE A FACILITY DIRECTIVE:

(A) PRESCRIBING LOCAL PROCEDURES FOR CONDUCTING THESE OPERATIONS.
(B) PRESCRIBING METHODS TO ASSIST THE LOCAL CONTROLLER IN MAINTAINING AWARENESS OF AIRCRAFT POSITIONS ON THE AIRPORT. SUCH METHODS MAY INCLUDE, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO, READING BACK THE PILOT'S STATED POSITION, ANNOTATING FLIGHT PROGRESS STRIPS, POSTING OR ARRANGING FLIGHT PROGRESS STRIPS ACCORDING TO AIRCRAFT'S INTENDED TAKEOFF POSITION, OR MARKING THE LOCATION OF AIRCRAFT WITH COLOR-CODED CHIPS ON A MAGNETIC DIAGRAM OF THE AIRPORT. REFERENCE FAA ORDER 7210.3, PARAGRAPH 10-1-7, USE OF ACTIVE RUNWAYS
(C) PRESCRIBING THE CONSOLIDATION AND STAFFING OF POSITIONS.
(D) PRESCRIBING THE REQUIREMENT FOR THE SAFETY LOGIC SYSTEM TO OPERATE IN FULL CORE ALERT RUNWAY CONFIGURATION.
​

3. LOCAL CONTROL POSITION SHALL NOT BE CONSOLIDATED/COMBINED WITH ANY OTHER POSITION. FOR EXAMPLE, LOCAL CONTROL POSITION SHALL NOT BE COMBINED WITH ANOTHER LOCAL POSITION, CIC, LOCAL ASSIST, GROUND CONTROL, CLEARANCE DELIVERY/LFLIGHT DATA, ETC.
4. WHERE THE TOWER ASSOCIATE (LOCAL ASSIST) POSITION OR A LOCAL MONITOR POSITION IS ESTABLISHED, THIS POSITION SHALL BE STAFFED. THIS POSITION IS CONSIDERED ESSENTIAL TO THE OPERATIONAL INTEGRITY AND SAFETY LEVELS REQUIRED TO MINIMIZE THE POTENTIAL FOR SURFACE ERRORS AND LAND- OVER INCIDENTS.
5. SUPERVISOR/CIC POSITION SHALL NOT BE COMINED WITH A CONTROL POSITION.
6. AT THOSE FACILITIES WITH SAFETY LOGIC SYSTEMS, THE SYSTEM SHALL BE OPERATING IN THE FULL CORE ALERT RUNWAY CONFIGURATION.
7. ENSURE WATCH SUPERVISORS/CIC'S REVIEW FAA ORDER 7210.3, PARAGRAPH 2-6-1 A, WATCH SUPERVISION, WITH AN EMPHASIS ON MAINTAINING SITUATIONAL AWARENESS AND MANAGEMENT OF THE OPERATIONAL ENVIRONMENT WITH A GOAL TOWARD ELIMINATING DISTRACTIONS.
​

C. AT MANAGERS MUST SUBMIT OPERATIONAL NEED FOR TIPH AND FACILITY DIRECTIVE TO THE APPROPRIATE TERMINAL SERVICE UNIT AREA DIRECTOR FOR APPROVAL.
D. TERMINAL SERVICE UNIT AREA DIRECTORS WILL CONDUCT AN ANNUAL REVIEW OF FACILITIES CONDUCTING TIPH OPERATIONS

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

My pops has been doing it for almost 30 years between the Air Force and FAA... he is a Sup and I think they deserve everything they get for what they do. He has helped me live my "dream" 60K?

 

[Elusive Napkin]

GOVERNMENT UNIONS, my friend, GOVERNMENT UNIONS. When an airline goes on strike, a private corporation is threatened . . . they'll either come to an equitable solution or go under. There is significant inherent pressure for both sides to bargin equitably.

As for "the flying public" . . . any airline that goes under will be replaced w/in weeks by surplus capacity. Whoop-dee-diddly-do-dee.

Not so GOVERNEMENT UNIONS. They can rape the US taxpayer all day long. But hey, we're only borrowing money from the Chinese that your grandkids will have to pay off for the rest of their lives.

Ever heard of a teacher strike losing? No? Well that's because teachers know dang well they can force the local taxpayer to borrow infinte amounts of money. Same with govt. unions. Notable exceptions: ATC circa 30 years ago; NYC transit strike circa 1 year ago.

I really don't understand how you could think this way. Everyone one thought pilots were overpaid back before 9/11. Some people still do. We aren't and we know it. We deserve every penny of what we get and then 5 times more. Every time an emergency happens like a Jet Blue nose gear gets turned the wrong way or an XJT plane blows its tires, we are reminded of how important it is that we know what we are doing. ATC is no different. Since the LAX Skywest crash, when have you seen an accident resulting in ATC error? Sure they screw up and we catch it all the time. But we screw up too, and I don't always catch myself.

You may think government unions are bad, but do you think they are unnecessary? I don't really like unions, but I am in one. And I realize I need it. I just don't like the politics of it.

You mentioned the teachers union. Don't you think they are underpaid? Do you think they would get more money without a union? The government is a big company. It has to have employees. Saying that government unions are putting a gun to the taxpayers head is harsh. Do you really think your taxes would go down if controllers were paid less? Think about it. You dont think Congress would find somewhere else to put it? I would bet my salary that they would find a big bridge in Alaska or maybe some more entitlement programs for the illegal immigrants. They would find something. That money will be spent, and I would rather it be spent on a professional that spends his working day keeping me out of trouble.

And should you have any doubt that what they do is challenging, here is a website for you. http://www.xavius.com
Xavius created a very high quality Air Traffic Control Simulator. It is fairly accurate. Maybe you will find some appreciation for the work these guys do.

 

[pilotmyf]

You mentioned the teachers union. Don't you think they are underpaid? .

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sqwkvfr]

Rush Limbaugh (a union member, by the way)

Which union would that be?

 

[Baronman]

I think ATC deserves what they are fighting for. Guys please...Listen to the frequencies and you'll realize it's them leading us around all day long. Weather it's Southwest, JetBlue or Continental they're the ones organizing the whole thing. Listen to Washington Center over Flatrock organizing the arrivals into EWR, not that easy. Go visit a major airport's ATC tower, these guys are real pro's. To say that guys working the tower freq should be making less than a pilot is selling them short.

 

[gabbyzoel]

There is more at stake than just salaries for the controllers. The FAA is trying to change work rules as well. They want to be able to keep a controller on position for an unlimited time. Now it is limited to 2 hours without a break. All the controllers I know say that after 90 minutes of staring at the screen they are wiped out.
Also the FAA wants to take away vacations as they see fit. So to add to the stress of the job, a controller who has a vacation coming up has to worry if they will even get to keep it.
The FAA also wants the right to down grade facilities as they see fit with the corresponding pay cuts that go with it. The contract now does fully downgrade pay.
With the imposed contract, new controllers will may more than 40% less than current controllers. Controllers in training that I have spoke to say they may quit and go elsewhere because part of the draw to such a stressful job and putting up with the brutal training was the compensation. You think 4 days in the simm was bad, trainees have someone over their shoulder everyday for 3 to 4 years.
With this reduced pay less qualified people will want the job so the FAA will have to lower the standards to attract and pass people. This means less qualified individuals watching over us.
If the FAA is allowed to IMPOSE this contract on the controllers without completing negotiations, this can only hurt ALL labor bargaining units around the country. The airlines will follow suit and try the same thing. They already have the federal judges on their side.
Call your congressman, go to www.fairfaa.com and send the letters. It is so easy.

 

[Elusive Napkin]

BUMP

This deserves more attention from pilots!!!!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Which union would that be?

AFTRA - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists
http://www.imaginenews.com/Archive/2000/JAN_2000/Text/FEAT07.htm

 

[smellthejeta]

There is more at stake than just salaries for the controllers. The FAA is trying to change work rules as well. They want to be able to keep a controller on position for an unlimited time. Now it is limited to 2 hours without a break. All the controllers I know say that after 90 minutes of staring at the screen they are wiped out.
Also the FAA wants to take away vacations as they see fit. So to add to the stress of the job, a controller who has a vacation coming up has to worry if they will even get to keep it.
The FAA also wants the right to down grade facilities as they see fit with the corresponding pay cuts that go with it. The contract now does fully downgrade pay.
With the imposed contract, new controllers will may more than 40% less than current controllers. Controllers in training that I have spoke to say they may quit and go elsewhere because part of the draw to such a stressful job and putting up with the brutal training was the compensation. You think 4 days in the simm was bad, trainees have someone over their shoulder everyday for 3 to 4 years.
With this reduced pay less qualified people will want the job so the FAA will have to lower the standards to attract and pass people. This means less qualified individuals watching over us.
If the FAA is allowed to IMPOSE this contract on the controllers without completing negotiations, this can only hurt ALL labor bargaining units around the country. The airlines will follow suit and try the same thing. They already have the federal judges on their side.
Call your congressman, go to www.fairfaa.com and send the letters. It is so easy.

I'm one of those guys who might quit and go elsewhere. ATC already has two tier pay (like CA/FO pay at the airlines). When you're in training, you make a sub-standard wage, and when you check out after 3-4 years (at the Centers, where about half of the controllers work -- towers/tracons can do it a little faster) you finally make the "advertised" rates. While you're in training for three to four years (don't forget 3 months at OKC) your training instructor holds your career in his hands.

The road to ATC is either as simple or as difficult as the FAA wants to make it. In this day and age, it tends to be more difficult. First, you pretty much MUST graduate from an FAA approved collegiate program, and there are only 14 in the country. 4 are at junior colleges, the rest are at 4-year schools. After that, you have to pass a fairly strict background check. Then, you get a medical and psych eval. Then, you get to spend another three months at the training academy. Back in the old days, the academy had a very high washout rate. Ooop, don't forget the aptitude test. If the FAA can't get enough civillian people, they can go to the military, right? Haha. The military ain't going to let go their entire ranks of controllers to keep the FAA happy. You can't just dump an ass load of money into an ATC career and expect to get a job. In fact, I got mine relatively cheap, for about $3000.

Folks, controlling for a career ain't like flying airplanes for a career. If I could make 80% of my (previous) controller's salary on my 30th birthday flying airplanes, I'd be flying airplanes. Fact is, they got the airline thing structured such that they can shove paycuts down your throats and you'll take them without much of a fight.

Can they do the same to us? They're going to try. The difference is, they're trying to play the senior guys against the junior guys. I wonder what playbook they got that one from? Here's the rub, though. Those hardball negotiating tactics work at any airline, major or commuter, because there's always a line of people willing to keep their job or take somebody else's job, no matter what.

The same isn't true for controllers. Nobody I know has the same burning desire to push tin that they do flying airplanes. The facilities are short staffed, guys are retiring, AND THE FAA ISN'T REPLACING THEM. They already cut this year's proposed hiring by 30%. Since it takes 3-4 years to make Captain, and every controller is a Captain, explain to me where they're going to get the bodies from. Short staffed ATC makes your job more difficult. Period. If you guys grounded your fleet for a day, I'd still get paid. If ATC shuts down for a day, good luck flying your airplane. Not all of you will get paid.

Also, to whoever was degrading government unions -- I can't strike, nor can we engage in organized work actions. Exactly how much power do we really hold? I'll give you a hint, it's not much.

I haven't made it to OKC (still waiting for my security clearance), but I sure hope this contract gets settled before I go. If it's as bad as everybody says it is, I'll be the first one out the door. There's too much work and too much risk involved with this job to do it for 65%-70% less pay than there already is.

P.S., just so everybody knows, the various bills in congress that fairfaa refers to have nothing to do with the specifics of the contract. All it does is require that the FAA negotiate a contract with the controllers, and if that can't happen, that it goes to binding arbitration. The administrator is under the impression she can impose a contract if she puts her mind to it.

 

[Alin10123]

Also, to whoever was degrading government unions -- I can't strike, nor can we engage in organized work actions. Exactly how much power do we really hold? I'll give you a hint, it's not much.

Well... it was illegal for the NYC subway workers to strike as well. But they still did it even after a federal judge ordered them back onto the job. What're they going to do? Throw ALL of you in jail???

 

[gabbyzoel]

Well... it was illegal for the NYC subway workers to strike as well. But they still did it even after a federal judge ordered them back onto the job. What're they going to do? Throw ALL of you in jail???

They won't throw the controllers in jail just fire them. The precedent has already been set and the current administration would love to fire them again just to prove a point. Besides the american public would not rally behind the controllers after what happened in 1980. The answer is for Congress to act in the next couple of weeks.
Only Congress can force the FAA back to the table and Congress will only do that if enough pressure is put on them. www.fairfaa.com

 

[smellthejeta]

Thanks to the PATCO boys in '81, very few controllers are between a rock and a hard place. By that, I mean that there aren't enough senior controllers who have to hold on to their pensions and will do anything to screw the new guys. The FAA can't take away pensions, and the guys that are left are all about ready to retire. The new guys (either in the pool or just starting) don't have much invested, so we can just walk away if the contract is bad enough. There will be no strike, just a bunch of retirements and guys walking out the door.

 

[idoitupsidedown]

I say pay controllers whatever it takes to attract and keep the good ones. give them more breaks, softer chairs, and for god's sake, tell them to have a good day, or weekend, or a simple 'see ya'. ANYTHING TO KEEP THEM HAPPY AND ALERT. All i know is that when ive got the seat reclined, the overhead light on, and the sudoku out, i appreciate having an attentive eye looking out for me and my lil' ole baron. if i didnt didnt have some of the controllers looking out for lazy bums like me, i might hafta put the crosswords down. If the controllers are not skilled or happy, i wont b able to get turns at the marker anymore. or direct to the airport. or the visual 40 miles out. or any of those other things that makes my job easier and more enjoyable. so to all the controllers out there, thank you and good luck.