Help our counterparts in ATC

[sqwkvfr]

Rush Limbaugh (a union member, by the way)

Which union would that be?

 

[Baronman]

I think ATC deserves what they are fighting for. Guys please...Listen to the frequencies and you'll realize it's them leading us around all day long. Weather it's Southwest, JetBlue or Continental they're the ones organizing the whole thing. Listen to Washington Center over Flatrock organizing the arrivals into EWR, not that easy. Go visit a major airport's ATC tower, these guys are real pro's. To say that guys working the tower freq should be making less than a pilot is selling them short.

 

[gabbyzoel]

There is more at stake than just salaries for the controllers. The FAA is trying to change work rules as well. They want to be able to keep a controller on position for an unlimited time. Now it is limited to 2 hours without a break. All the controllers I know say that after 90 minutes of staring at the screen they are wiped out.
Also the FAA wants to take away vacations as they see fit. So to add to the stress of the job, a controller who has a vacation coming up has to worry if they will even get to keep it.
The FAA also wants the right to down grade facilities as they see fit with the corresponding pay cuts that go with it. The contract now does fully downgrade pay.
With the imposed contract, new controllers will may more than 40% less than current controllers. Controllers in training that I have spoke to say they may quit and go elsewhere because part of the draw to such a stressful job and putting up with the brutal training was the compensation. You think 4 days in the simm was bad, trainees have someone over their shoulder everyday for 3 to 4 years.
With this reduced pay less qualified people will want the job so the FAA will have to lower the standards to attract and pass people. This means less qualified individuals watching over us.
If the FAA is allowed to IMPOSE this contract on the controllers without completing negotiations, this can only hurt ALL labor bargaining units around the country. The airlines will follow suit and try the same thing. They already have the federal judges on their side.
Call your congressman, go to www.fairfaa.com and send the letters. It is so easy.

 

[Elusive Napkin]

BUMP

This deserves more attention from pilots!!!!

 

[Bringupthebird]

Which union would that be?

AFTRA - American Federation of Television and Radio Artists
http://www.imaginenews.com/Archive/2000/JAN_2000/Text/FEAT07.htm

 

[smellthejeta]

There is more at stake than just salaries for the controllers. The FAA is trying to change work rules as well. They want to be able to keep a controller on position for an unlimited time. Now it is limited to 2 hours without a break. All the controllers I know say that after 90 minutes of staring at the screen they are wiped out.
Also the FAA wants to take away vacations as they see fit. So to add to the stress of the job, a controller who has a vacation coming up has to worry if they will even get to keep it.
The FAA also wants the right to down grade facilities as they see fit with the corresponding pay cuts that go with it. The contract now does fully downgrade pay.
With the imposed contract, new controllers will may more than 40% less than current controllers. Controllers in training that I have spoke to say they may quit and go elsewhere because part of the draw to such a stressful job and putting up with the brutal training was the compensation. You think 4 days in the simm was bad, trainees have someone over their shoulder everyday for 3 to 4 years.
With this reduced pay less qualified people will want the job so the FAA will have to lower the standards to attract and pass people. This means less qualified individuals watching over us.
If the FAA is allowed to IMPOSE this contract on the controllers without completing negotiations, this can only hurt ALL labor bargaining units around the country. The airlines will follow suit and try the same thing. They already have the federal judges on their side.
Call your congressman, go to www.fairfaa.com and send the letters. It is so easy.

I'm one of those guys who might quit and go elsewhere. ATC already has two tier pay (like CA/FO pay at the airlines). When you're in training, you make a sub-standard wage, and when you check out after 3-4 years (at the Centers, where about half of the controllers work -- towers/tracons can do it a little faster) you finally make the "advertised" rates. While you're in training for three to four years (don't forget 3 months at OKC) your training instructor holds your career in his hands.

The road to ATC is either as simple or as difficult as the FAA wants to make it. In this day and age, it tends to be more difficult. First, you pretty much MUST graduate from an FAA approved collegiate program, and there are only 14 in the country. 4 are at junior colleges, the rest are at 4-year schools. After that, you have to pass a fairly strict background check. Then, you get a medical and psych eval. Then, you get to spend another three months at the training academy. Back in the old days, the academy had a very high washout rate. Ooop, don't forget the aptitude test. If the FAA can't get enough civillian people, they can go to the military, right? Haha. The military ain't going to let go their entire ranks of controllers to keep the FAA happy. You can't just dump an ass load of money into an ATC career and expect to get a job. In fact, I got mine relatively cheap, for about $3000.

Folks, controlling for a career ain't like flying airplanes for a career. If I could make 80% of my (previous) controller's salary on my 30th birthday flying airplanes, I'd be flying airplanes. Fact is, they got the airline thing structured such that they can shove paycuts down your throats and you'll take them without much of a fight.

Can they do the same to us? They're going to try. The difference is, they're trying to play the senior guys against the junior guys. I wonder what playbook they got that one from? Here's the rub, though. Those hardball negotiating tactics work at any airline, major or commuter, because there's always a line of people willing to keep their job or take somebody else's job, no matter what.

The same isn't true for controllers. Nobody I know has the same burning desire to push tin that they do flying airplanes. The facilities are short staffed, guys are retiring, AND THE FAA ISN'T REPLACING THEM. They already cut this year's proposed hiring by 30%. Since it takes 3-4 years to make Captain, and every controller is a Captain, explain to me where they're going to get the bodies from. Short staffed ATC makes your job more difficult. Period. If you guys grounded your fleet for a day, I'd still get paid. If ATC shuts down for a day, good luck flying your airplane. Not all of you will get paid.

Also, to whoever was degrading government unions -- I can't strike, nor can we engage in organized work actions. Exactly how much power do we really hold? I'll give you a hint, it's not much.

I haven't made it to OKC (still waiting for my security clearance), but I sure hope this contract gets settled before I go. If it's as bad as everybody says it is, I'll be the first one out the door. There's too much work and too much risk involved with this job to do it for 65%-70% less pay than there already is.

P.S., just so everybody knows, the various bills in congress that fairfaa refers to have nothing to do with the specifics of the contract. All it does is require that the FAA negotiate a contract with the controllers, and if that can't happen, that it goes to binding arbitration. The administrator is under the impression she can impose a contract if she puts her mind to it.

 

[Alin10123]

Also, to whoever was degrading government unions -- I can't strike, nor can we engage in organized work actions. Exactly how much power do we really hold? I'll give you a hint, it's not much.

Well... it was illegal for the NYC subway workers to strike as well. But they still did it even after a federal judge ordered them back onto the job. What're they going to do? Throw ALL of you in jail???

 

[gabbyzoel]

Well... it was illegal for the NYC subway workers to strike as well. But they still did it even after a federal judge ordered them back onto the job. What're they going to do? Throw ALL of you in jail???

They won't throw the controllers in jail just fire them. The precedent has already been set and the current administration would love to fire them again just to prove a point. Besides the american public would not rally behind the controllers after what happened in 1980. The answer is for Congress to act in the next couple of weeks.
Only Congress can force the FAA back to the table and Congress will only do that if enough pressure is put on them. www.fairfaa.com

 

[smellthejeta]

Thanks to the PATCO boys in '81, very few controllers are between a rock and a hard place. By that, I mean that there aren't enough senior controllers who have to hold on to their pensions and will do anything to screw the new guys. The FAA can't take away pensions, and the guys that are left are all about ready to retire. The new guys (either in the pool or just starting) don't have much invested, so we can just walk away if the contract is bad enough. There will be no strike, just a bunch of retirements and guys walking out the door.

 

[idoitupsidedown]

I say pay controllers whatever it takes to attract and keep the good ones. give them more breaks, softer chairs, and for god's sake, tell them to have a good day, or weekend, or a simple 'see ya'. ANYTHING TO KEEP THEM HAPPY AND ALERT. All i know is that when ive got the seat reclined, the overhead light on, and the sudoku out, i appreciate having an attentive eye looking out for me and my lil' ole baron. if i didnt didnt have some of the controllers looking out for lazy bums like me, i might hafta put the crosswords down. If the controllers are not skilled or happy, i wont b able to get turns at the marker anymore. or direct to the airport. or the visual 40 miles out. or any of those other things that makes my job easier and more enjoyable. so to all the controllers out there, thank you and good luck.

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

Well... it was illegal for the NYC subway workers to strike as well. But they still did it even after a federal judge ordered them back onto the job. What're they going to do? Throw ALL of you in jail???

Here's the kicker, I don't think any president, or anybody in the government now has the testicular, or ovarian fortitude to pull of what Reagan did back in 81...Even if it's illegal for gov't workers to go on strike....

That, and the controllers nowadays know what happened in the past...They're not willing to risk it.

 

[smellthejeta]

Here's the kicker, I don't think any president, or anybody in the government now has the testicular, or ovarian fortitude to pull of what Reagan did back in 81...Even if it's illegal for gov't workers to go on strike....

That, and the controllers nowadays know what happened in the past...They're not willing to risk it.

DJ, the difference this time around is that there is nobody to strike. Whatever offer Marion throws on the table will pay-protect the senior guys at the expensive of the new (or not yet hired) guys. Just like in any hard-sell contract negotiation, the senior guys will save themselves no matter what the cost.

Here's the rub: There's very new hires at the facilities right NOW. If the contract is settled today, there will be nobody to strike in protest... they'll just drop out of the academy, out of the pool, or whatever. What the FAA forgets is that it takes a minimum of two years to train an enroute controller. What happens when the senior guys retire, and all that is left is trainees? That's the jam the FAA will be in.

IOW, the FAA doesn't have anybody over a barrel, except themselves.

 

[Hypoxik]

Good Luck

Sometimes it is great to have a pleasant controller on the other end after a crappy flight.

 

[gabbyzoel]

DJ, the difference this time around is that there is nobody to strike. Whatever offer Marion throws on the table will pay-protect the senior guys at the expensive of the new (or not yet hired) guys. Just like in any hard-sell contract negotiation, the senior guys will save themselves no matter what the cost.

Here's the rub: There's very new hires at the facilities right NOW. If the contract is settled today, there will be nobody to strike in protest... they'll just drop out of the academy, out of the pool, or whatever. What the FAA forgets is that it takes a minimum of two years to train an enroute controller. What happens when the senior guys retire, and all that is left is trainees? That's the jam the FAA will be in.

IOW, the FAA doesn't have anybody over a barrel, except themselves.

The senior guys aren't pay protected under the imposed contract. They loose insentive pays and locality pay as well. And as soon as the FAA imposes this contract, they plan on reclassifying each area to different pay scales. Unlike the airlines, the senior guys aren't selling out the newhires to keep their pay. The FAA is imposing this pay structure. The controllers can't vote on this. NATCA is trying like crazy to maintain the pay structure for all the controllers, new hires included. To say the senior guys are selling out the new hires to save their pay is an unfair and false claim.
The kicker here is...The controllers have no say right now as to their fate. The only help is us calling congress to force the FAA back to the table.

 

[DLconnection]

The senior guys aren't pay protected under the imposed contract. They loose insentive pays and locality pay as well. And as soon as the FAA imposes this contract, they plan on reclassifying each area to different pay scales. Unlike the airlines, the senior guys aren't selling out the newhires to keep their pay. The FAA is imposing this pay structure. The controllers can't vote on this. NATCA is trying like crazy to maintain the pay structure for all the controllers, new hires included. To say the senior guys are selling out the new hires to save their pay is an unfair and false claim.
The kicker here is...The controllers have no say right now as to their fate. The only help is us calling congress to force the FAA back to the table.

Close. The "senior" guys/those already CPCs will be frozen under their current paybands. They will not receive a paycut. However, you are correct in that the FAA wants to delete a lot of the incentives like CIC pay. I disagree with you about the deletion of locality pay. If they cut that you will lose most of your controllers in the expensive areas of the west coast and in the northeast. There was rumor to this, but very unlikely that it will happen.

I don't believe that the "senior" guys are selling out the newbies either. What a newhire makes means nothing to an experienced controller as long as they don't take a pay cut. Marion has clearly stated that she is not cutting the pay for the current controllers (meaning those fully checked out). Instead she wants to FREEZE their pay at its current rate. The kicker about this is that there are a ton of controllers right now that are eligible for retirement. Some of them are hanging on to make the most money they can before they leave so that their retirement will be better. If the money will not improve..... look to see a surge of mass retirements after this contract is imposed.

Something else will occur because of the mass retirements. You will have to slowdown the training process for newhires because you now must allocate your instructor/training resources to work the stations vacated by retirees. I see chaos happening. Look at ZLA. They are so short on CPCs that it takes a year to get into D-side school. You are lucky if you get checked out in 3 years there.

This new contract will suck, but hopefully this new bill makes it to the floor and forces the FAA to actually negotiate a fair contract for the future controllers. Something else to remember is that this contract will be renegotiated in 5 years and hopelly under a new and improved administration.

 

[rediesmi]

Close.

This new contract will suck, but hopefully this new bill makes it to the floor and forces the FAA to actually negotiate a fair contract for the future controllers. Something else to remember is that this contract will be renegotiated in 5 years and hopelly under a new and improved administration.

It's my understanding that the imposed work rules are not a contract, not sure how future negotiations would go. Why would the FAA agree to talks when they can simply institute any rules they want? Hopefully they will work something out before the mass retirements happen, but it won't happen without pressure from congress

 

[DLconnection]

It's my understanding that the imposed work rules are not a contract, not sure how future negotiations would go. Why would the FAA agree to talks when they can simply institute any rules they want? Hopefully they will work something out before the mass retirements happen, but it won't happen without pressure from congress

The imposed rules is actually an imposed contract. The current contract between the FAA and Natca became ammendable this past summer. The problem that NATCA is having right now is that there is a loophole in the current contract dealing with how a new contract will be determined.

First off, the FAA is claiming that they are short on money. Marion has made it VERY clear that she wants to run the FAA like a business. The proposal from the FAA is evidence of this. They want to bring the pay down to that of similar government positions.

The loophole is that when it comes to the negotiation of a new contract, if the FAA and Natca can not agree on the terms of the agreement, the FAA can declare and IMPASS which they just have. The contract is then passed onto congress where they act is sort of a judge if you will. If Congress cannot make a decision for either side, the contract will then go to arbitration where FAA will be able to impose their last best offer onto NATCA.
Whats this basically means is that the FAA can sit at the table, as they have for the past few months, with their arms cross and not agree to anything and still get everything that they want. Natca is powerless basically. NATCA has been able to call Marion and everyone else on their BS. John Carr (president of Natca) is awesome. He has made the FAA look foolish infront of the public, and the senate. Still.... this impass has been declared and this contract might still actually be imposed.

Thats why this new bill submitted by Sen. Obama is so important. It will force the FAA to negotiate a fair contract in "good faith", closing the loophole

 

[DJRobbioRobbio]

DJ, the difference this time around is that there is nobody to strike. Whatever offer Marion throws on the table will pay-protect the senior guys at the expensive of the new (or not yet hired) guys. Just like in any hard-sell contract negotiation, the senior guys will save themselves no matter what the cost.

Here's the rub: There's very new hires at the facilities right NOW. If the contract is settled today, there will be nobody to strike in protest... they'll just drop out of the academy, out of the pool, or whatever. What the FAA forgets is that it takes a minimum of two years to train an enroute controller. What happens when the senior guys retire, and all that is left is trainees? That's the jam the FAA will be in.

IOW, the FAA doesn't have anybody over a barrel, except themselves.

You gotta love the way how the federal gov't conducts business. They constantly paint themselves into a corner, and then flip out when it's all about to go loose.

 

[Night_Flight]

Say again? I was on the land line.

No, pilots need to say: "Say again? I was on the air line." (Dumb I know)

 

[gabbyzoel]

The FAA wants to freeze contollers pay for 5 years which includes no cost of living raises for 5 years that other FAA employees currently receive. So it is a pay cut. Controller in charge pay will be gone as well as instructor pay.
Don't believe anything Marion Blakley says. And don't forget about Russ Chew who is the head of the ATO. The American Airlines guys should remember him. He is also behind a lot of this labor action as well. One thing to be sure of is if the FAA, our government, gets away with this imposed contract, ALPA and every other Union in this country will suffer a huge set back. The 1980 firing was a huge blow to organized labor in this country, one we still have yet to recover from.
Now that the FAA has declared an impass, the last best offer goes into effect June 5th regardless of how the controllers feel unless Congress takes some sort of action. The bill would be great for the future but Congress needs to act now.

 

[Hold West]

If Congress cannot make a decision for either side, the contract will then go to arbitration where FAA will be able to impose their last best offer onto NATCA.

....

Thats why this new bill submitted by Sen. Obama is so important. It will force the FAA to negotiate a fair contract in "good faith", closing the loophole

No, if Congress does not act, the FAA then implements its "last best offer". No arbitration happens. That's the intent of the Obama bill, to send it to binding arbitration rather than allowing to invoke their version at will. We WANT binding arbitration, that's what we are pushing for in Congress.

 

[Hold West]

No, pilots need to say: "Say again? I was on the air line." (Dumb I know)

I was probably on the land line coordinating YOUR request for direct routing. NO problem, "Unable direct anywhere".

 

[Hold West]

DJ, the difference this time around is that there is nobody to strike. Whatever offer Marion throws on the table will pay-protect the senior guys at the expensive of the new (or not yet hired) guys. Just like in any hard-sell contract negotiation, the senior guys will save themselves no matter what the cost.

This is, well, how do I say it, COMPLETELY WRONG. One of the contract provisions we are at impassse over is the imposition of a "B" scale for new hires. Read Marion's diatribes, she says over and over that we refuse to agree to that. In fact, let me quote from her April 21 letter:

"We never came close to an agreement for three primary reasons. First, the union has rejected every one of our proposals for meaningful reduction in new hire pay bands, even though the agency's proposal establishes a competitive pay scale under which the maximum base pay for new hire controllers at out highest level facilities is more than the maximum base pay of a GS-14."

The underline is in the orignal letter, read it here.

Next, the nontract the FAA wants to impose eliminates all protections for anyone's pay. The FAA can upgrade or downgrade at will. The nontract includes a provision that will allow it it to balkanize facilities into little chunks, each of which will be paid far less than the whole. No one's pay is protected.

We "senior guys" have just as much to lose. In fact, under both the FAA's and NATCA's last offers, I'm essentially screwed. 22 months to retirement, thank God.

 

[samfu_1]

Don't you just love how the "WalMart" culture in America has everybody in love with getting anything they want at the lowest price regardless of the consequences? Let me quote from the CEO of WalMart,
"On March 17, 1992, the President of the United States presented our founder, Sam Walton, with the Medal of Freedom. It was one of the proudest days in his life and in the life of our Company. Accepting the award, Mr. Sam said: "We'll lower the cost of living for everyone, not just in America, but we'll give the world an opportunity to see what it's like to save and do better." Sam Walton saw then what we're making a reality today at Wal-Mart. And to borrow just a few more of his words from that moving day: "We think we’ve just begun."
-not to mention giving the mentality that anything can come cheaper, like labor. They are proud for contributing to our race to the bottom mentality.

 

[smellthejeta]

This is, well, how do I say it, COMPLETELY WRONG. One of the contract provisions we are at impassse over is the imposition of a "B" scale for new hires. Read Marion's diatribes, she says over and over that we refuse to agree to that. In fact, let me quote from her April 21 letter:

"We never came close to an agreement for three primary reasons. First, the union has rejected every one of our proposals for meaningful reduction in new hire pay bands, even though the agency's proposal establishes a competitive pay scale under which the maximum base pay for new hire controllers at out highest level facilities is more than the maximum base pay of a GS-14."

The underline is in the orignal letter, read it here.

Next, the nontract the FAA wants to impose eliminates all protections for anyone's pay. The FAA can upgrade or downgrade at will. The nontract includes a provision that will allow it it to balkanize facilities into little chunks, each of which will be paid far less than the whole. No one's pay is protected.

We "senior guys" have just as much to lose. In fact, under both the FAA's and NATCA's last offers, I'm essentially screwed. 22 months to retirement, thank God.

I stand corrected. I thought there was enough bones in there to keep you guys from walking out the door enmasse. I figured Marion was smart enough to get you guys to agree to anything that would screw the new hires, especially considering that almost all of you will be hitting the big 25 in the next year or two.

If she wants to ruin the job/ATC system, that's fine with me. My current employer pays me pretty dang well considering the job and is footing the bill for me to get a Masters.

 

[superrav]

I know a controller in MEM..long story short. He and I got into a pretty nasty conversation because he proceded to tell me pilots are stupid and that controllers are responsible for everyones safety...I told him their is equal responsibility but he didnt want to hear it. anyways, he was a friend before that conversation. He went into ATC because he couldnt get on with a 121.

 

[Hold West]

I know a controller in MEM..long story short. He and I got into a pretty nasty conversation because he proceded to tell me pilots are stupid and that controllers are responsible for everyones safety...I told him their is equal responsibility but he didnt want to hear it. anyways, he was a friend before that conversation. He went into ATC because he couldnt get on with a 121.

I actually cringe a bit when I hear some of the union lines about how we get you safely home, etc. Safety is a chain, every link needs to be up to full strength. Yes, we have an important link, but every link is critical.

That's why I try to be reasonable on frequency, I've been kept out of trouble by alert pilots on frequency just as I've kept pilots out of trouble. It's inherent in a controller's nature to be somewhat arrogant, and arrogance has been known to surface in my demeanor from time to time, but I try to keep it in check.

If the nontract is imposed, thousands won't die - the system will still chug along. What will happen is an erosion of the level of safety, as experience is lost - and the results of that are quite unpredictable. Remember Uberlingen! I think there will be a considerable loss of efficiency as well, but that will be hard to quantify. Maybe when summer '07 rolls around we'll see the effects.

 

[Hold West]

I stand corrected. I thought there was enough bones in there to keep you guys from walking out the door enmasse. I figured Marion was smart enough to get you guys to agree to anything that would screw the new hires, especially considering that almost all of you will be hitting the big 25 in the next year or two.

If she wants to ruin the job/ATC system, that's fine with me. My current employer pays me pretty dang well considering the job and is footing the bill for me to get a Masters.

That's one thing I'm glad for, that most folks trying to get in the door have degrees and options. The FAA will soon figure out that a lot of you will exercise those options and go elsewhere.

The major difference between the FAA and NATCA proposals right now for me personally is that under NATCA's proposal my pay is frozen where it is. Under the FAA's I stand to take at least a 4% base pay cut and probably 8%. Either way, I will do better in the end by retiring sooner and taking the OPM annual cost of living increases to my retirement pay than sticking around for nada.

 

[smellthejeta]

I got into this because supposedly with a $3,000 investment, I was supposed to be making $100k on my 30th b-day. Okay, there's a little more to it than that (both the financials and the reasons I got into this career) but it's simple enough. Show me a pilot who can make that kind of money with that little investment. I already tried the military route, and I would be a military pilot if I could pass a USAF physical. Won't happen.

Will thousands die? I agree with Hold West on this one. No. However, quantifiable or not, the efficiency of the system will drop like a friggin rock. Those that flew after the PATCO strike say that the system was a nightmare. It won't be any better this time around.

I like the job. I like the environment. I like the government pension. However, I refuse to work for somebody who is trying to fire me at every chance she gets, while making my work conditions miserable, all for ******************** pay.