Hawker XP question

[English]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I know nothing about the Hawker XP.

Can one safely and legally fly the Hawker XP from the East Coast to Europe with an inoperative APU?

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

Safely? That's a matter of opinion. It would be nice to have that 3rd DC GEN if needed in flight, but that is just personal comfort level issue.
Legally? What does the MEL say?

I've never flown a Hawker, but from comments I hear from operators, they are a safe and reliable airplane. I personally would not make that flight, and if both Gens sign off over the Atlantic, you'll wish you didn't either. The chances/odds of that happeneing are in your favor though.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I know nothing about the Hawker XP.

Can one safely and legally fly the Hawker XP from the East Coast to Europe with an inoperative APU?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I know nothing about the Hawker XP.

Can one safely and legally fly the Hawker XP from the East Coast to Europe with an inoperative APU?

simply a MEL question. Some A/C say no flight beyond 1hr distance from a suitable aiport with APU inop..

Heck, you can fly a 152 to Europe, just depends on your comfort level.

Now, why as a pax would you fly your Hawker to Europe when Virgin First Class is about 100X more comfy...thats the question...

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

Now, why as a pax would you fly your Hawker to Europe when Virgin First Class is about 100X more comfy...thats the question...

Why do they do half the things they do? They always amaze me. The owners of our 800XP have us flying empty at least 50% of the time. They think nothing of using the airplane to drop off an employee or family member somewhere, then fly home empty. They have us order hundreds of dollars of catering each flight and often don't even open the saran-wrap seal. Although we advise them of fuel prices they don't care, and think nothing of dropping over $4/gal in NY. Then when it comes to spending money on crew transportation or even their own they'll balk at spending $50/day instead of $32. Their world is very strange... I'll probably never "get" it.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sounds about right...its the same everywhere.

Let them keep flying around, its our job and our paycheck I guess!

Who are we to ask questions!?

 

[semperfido]

the MEL won't always have the answer. When it doesn't you will need to do some analysis and in the end- always leave yourself a out.

don't know much about the Hawker. No APU doesn't sound like a deal breaker though in usual situations. Have flown many times on other aircraft with APU inop. To Europe though?--i probably wouldn't want to start a trip in that condition nor would i fly across an ocean if it was part of my backup plan. What will an APU in a Hawker do for you? I don't know the answer to that question either.

 

[English]

My friend just interviewed for a position where the curent flight crew is being fired for not flying their aircraft to Europe because of an inop APU. Neither of us know anything about the Hawker so we are trying to determine if the owner is a reasonable person to work for. It seemed a little harsh to me that the owner was just outright firing both of his current crewmembers.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

My friend just interviewed for a position where the curent flight crew is being fired for not flying their aircraft to Europe because of an inop APU. Neither of us know anything about the Hawker so we are trying to determine if the owner is a reasonable person to work for. It seemed a little harsh to me that the owner was just outright firing both of his current crewmembers.

thats about all one needs to know about that job. <<click>>

 

[Flying Illini]

My friend just interviewed for a position where the curent flight crew is being fired for not flying their aircraft to Europe because of an inop APU. Neither of us know anything about the Hawker so we are trying to determine if the owner is a reasonable person to work for. It seemed a little harsh to me that the owner was just outright firing both of his current crewmembers.

I hope those crew members are able to find other jobs quickly. Getting fired b/c of safety concerns (for themselves AND the owner) is a pretty raw deal.

Tell your friend to be careful.

 

[PseudoName]

Getting fired b/c of safety concerns (for themselves AND the owner) is a pretty raw deal.

No it isn't. They got fired because they were stupid. The crew should know better than try to be a bunch of hot dogs going across the Atlantic with an inop APU. I know most owners would can their crew if they caught them flying the airplane in a condition that was unsafe.....I would if I was an owner!

Hawker XP APU provides power for electrical system and if need be, air conditioning for the cabin. Maybe I ask for too much, however, an operative APU for an Atlantic crossing is required equipment for me.

 

[English]

PseudoName,

I think you misunderstood my comment. They were fired because they WOULDN'T take the aircraft to Europe with an INOP APU. The owner happened to mention the incident to a mechanic, who told him it was perfectly safe to fly the aircraft on a trip like that with an inop APU. So, now the owner thinks the pilots were screwing with him.

 

[PseudoName]

PseudoName,

I think you misunderstood my comment. They were fired because they WOULDN'T take the aircraft to Europe with an INOP APU. The owner happened to mention the incident to a mechanic, who told him it was perfectly safe to fly the aircraft on a trip like that with an inop APU. So, now the owner thinks the pilots were screwing with him.

Thanks English for correcting me. I guess I should know better than getting on flightinfo in the morning without first having the morning joe.

Where is this Hawker based.....I think the word needs to get out about this owner.

 

[Flying Illini]

Insert foot in mouth, pseudo.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Wow, I'd say that's a bit harsh alright! Maybe there is more to it than we know. The MEL doesn't require the APU, I can tell you that much. There were a number of different APU's installed on the 800/800XP and only one of them, the Garrett -150/-150W is certified for use inflight. And even then, not all installations of that APU are approved for inflight use. Also some installations have STC's that only allow for emergency use inflight. I've only flown straight 800's so I can't say for sure but I believe all the XP's have the -150 or -150W installed and can be used inflight. So while not required, it might be nice to have or depending on what you consider safe, a must have. I'd guess that is something of a tough sell when other 800's don't even have the capability to operate their APU's inflight but you have to do what you think is right.

 

[750driver]

PseudoName,

The owner happened to mention the incident to a mechanic, who told him it was perfectly safe to fly the aircraft on a trip like that with an inop APU. So, now the owner thinks the pilots were screwing with him.

That's the first problem ...the mechanic is simply answering the question. Yes, it probably would be safe to make the flight from a mechanical standpoint.

The crew however, is thinking what if I lose a generator. Now I'm down to only one gen for the blue water op. The owner doesn't see the big picture. Personally, I would avoid this job, but that's my personal opinion.

 

[English]

Yep, it had red flag all over it to me, too.

 

[h25b]

As for the Hawker 800/XP APU's, the 800A's with the Solar APU can be used for emergencies only and the 800A's and 800XP's with the Garrett APU's can be used anytime you want although I think you have to get down pretty low for them to start (15,000 ft. comes to mind).

 

[BOZO]

I hope that owner has a tough time finding another crew to screw over. One word comes to mind about your friend interviewing for that job....NEXT!!! I wouldn't even give that owner the time of day...imho.

 

[400A]

thats about all one needs to know about that job. <<click>>

Roger That!

 

[Bandit60]

As for the Hawker 800/XP APU's, the 800A's with the Solar APU can be used for emergencies only and the 800A's and 800XP's with the Garrett APU's can be used anytime you want although I think you have to get down pretty low for them to start (15,000 ft. comes to mind).

Just to correct it. It can be started below 20000ft and a inflight start is prohibited with a dual gen failure.

 

[HawkerF/O]

That's the first problem ...the mechanic is simply answering the question. Yes, it probably would be safe to make the flight from a mechanical standpoint.

The crew however, is thinking what if I lose a generator. Now I'm down to only one gen for the blue water op. The owner doesn't see the big picture. Personally, I would avoid this job, but that's my personal opinion.

Thank you! 750 is exactly right. That mechanic was speaking on a subject that exceeded the scope of his knowledge; Flight Operations. That mechanic would be the 1st to tell you, "Oh, it's within limits, I'm not going to fix it." All the while 1/2 the LH window has delammed and it looks horrible (just an example as I am not famaliar with this operator). He knew exactly what he was doing when he said that A/C was safe to fly. To further the cause, by admitting the airplane was not safe to fly the mechanic would be indicting his own work I'm sure. You should post his name to we can be on the look out. Mechanics don't think like pilots and pilots don't think like mechanics. Especially with Hawkers; all those relays and old technology (though it tends to work well, but if they don't fly frequently, you're asking for problems) Some people are not satisfied unless they have a foot square up their A$%.

 

[h25b]

Just to correct it. It can be started below 20000ft and a inflight start is prohibited with a dual gen failure.

Is that 20000' number for the Garrett or Solar APU's? I could have sworn that the Solars were 15000'. Amazing how fast you can brain dump this stuff.

At any rate, I am not sure that you'd be descending down that far to try and light the APU. They always said that if you had a double generator failure that you don't want to eat up whatever battery power you have left trying to start the APU. Who knows, big gamble...

Bottom line is that the Hawker is not a good airplane for crossing water. I used to run in to guys at Wilmington, DE FSI that took their Hawker to Hawaii from SFO one a year.

 

[Flechas]

I secon everybody here, tellyour friend not to take that job, the owner doesn'tknow his ass from his head.

 

[Bandit60]

Is that 20000' number for the Garrett or Solar APU's? I could have sworn that the Solars were 15000'. Amazing how fast you can brain dump this stuff.

At any rate, I am not sure that you'd be descending down that far to try and light the APU. They always said that if you had a double generator failure that you don't want to eat up whatever battery power you have left trying to start the APU. Who knows, big gamble...

Bottom line is that the Hawker is not a good airplane for crossing water. I used to run in to guys at Wilmington, DE FSI that took their Hawker to Hawaii from SFO one a year.

My bad. I was talking about the Garrett APU. (20000ft).

Some operators are not putting on the Winglets so they can do Hawaii. It gives them a little better range with better fuel economy. But I might have to agree it still isnt the best for the over water operation. The good thing about the hawker is that it is so mechanical (instead of electrical) that with losing dual generators it is better than most airplanes. (if losing dual gens could be good at all?)

 

[unclematty]

700 Solar= Limited to 15,000', 270 KTS, Electricty Only, No Bleed Air, Placarded Emergency Use Only.

700 Garrett= No in-flight use, auto shut down at WOW.

800 Solar=See Above

800 Garrett=See Above

800 XP=some early XP's have a Garrett that is not approved for inflight use. Most XP's have the -150. Limited to 20,000 for starting and 30,000 for operation.
Do not atempt to start APU if both main (engine) generators are failed. This is a published limitation.

Do keep in mind a Hawker will not cross the Atlantic via the tracks. I know, I know the hawaii argument, but take a look at the wet footprint.

 

[FracCapt]

It doesn't matter what you do with the Hawker 800XP, it cannot do a Hawaii trip without a wet footprint. Period. Tell your friend that if he takes the job he needs to negotiate for swimming lessons as part of his compensation....because he may need to be a damn good swimmer.

You can't even do the NAT's in an XP without a wet footpring....you're stuck with the Blue Spruce routes. Screw that. A Hawker is not designed for long overwater flights.

 

[Snakum]

Please excuse my considerable newbie ig'nunce ...

What is the "wet footprint" for a given aircraft? I've heard the term used when talking about several types of aircraft that are used to fly to Hawaii (800XP, G100, etc.). My assumption is that when looking at the numbers, if everything doesn't go exactly according to plan (winds not as forecast, fuel flow not book, etc.) you then have a "wet footprint", as in ... "You can fly an 800XP to Hawaii if everything goes perfect, but if not you will be swimming."

Izzat what we're talking about?

Minhberg the Baby Baron FO

 

[h25b]

The wet footprint is basically the portion of the route in a given aircraft where if for some reason you had to descend out of altitude for any reason you would not be able to make landfall due to increased fuel-flow at the lower altitude...

In a Hawker for example you have about 6 hours of flight time at LRC. But that's counting on being up high. My personal longest leg was about 5 hrs. 50 min. in the thing.

 

[Snakum]

Ahhhhh .... thanks h25b.

Say, when can I come over your way and see the Lear? Maybe put a dab of kerosene behind my ears and make whistling noises while sitting in the left-hand seat.

That's about as close as I'll ever get to flying a Lear.


Minhberg the Jewish Pig Farmer

 

[capt_zman]

Flown both the 800A and Xp's across the atlantic over 100 times. The 800A apu will not light in flight, so in essence, you don't have an APU. The xp is limited as stated above.

As for tracks, i've flown the xp out of gander and cork/shannon on the tracks all the time without a wet footprint.