Hawker 900XP vs. Sovereign

[sleepy]

I flew the 800XP and the CE-680. They seem about the same as far as speed goes. The systems on the CE-680 are simpler and the engines are better. The CE-680 has a lot more cargo storage space, but it is unpressurized. Cabin size seems a little better on the Citation due to the baggage being external.

 

[sleepy]

Superior Aviation is buying Hawker, so they should be around for a while.

 

[Box-Hauler]

We had a similar task a few months ago, we looked at both the Cessna and the Hawker plus the CL300. We recommended the CL300 to the higher ups. Due to the DEALS that Challenger was offering it was cheaper to operate for the first 5 years than the Cessna. We disregarded the Hawker due to the financial issues. The Sovereign is/was the plane for us and our mission, but the deal from Challenger was too good to not recommend....... The CL300 was being discounted by 20% and we would only pay for fuel for the first 5 years / 1500 hrs. This was a similar deal to what Hawker was offering but they were even more than 20% off, they really wanted to sell a plane, but we just could not in good conscious recommend a company going into bankruptcy.

The decision was made to keep what we have Citation (XLS). I can only assume we will keep the plane for a few more years until the market recovers then they will buy a Challenger at a premium , but that is just my opinion (haha)

Good luck with the choice, I liked the Hawker systems better than Cessna but then again I flew and loved the DC8, so when in doubt run a cable to it:laugh:.

 

[400A]

We just finished recurrent on the Hawker and went across town and looked at the Sovereign at the factory. Cabin is great. Baggage is outstanding. Numbers are very impressive. With that said, I could not believe the flight deck was more cramped than our old Beechjet, and in my opinion, the avionics are far inferior. I did not care for the presentations on the tubes at all. I could learn to live with that, but the idea of almost 7 hours in that flight deck would be awful!

 

[spxdriver]

We currently operate a 750XP that has been perfect for us beyond belief. The boss is getting the itch to upgrade. I would like input from folks that have flown both and how they compare. I am very interested in avionics comparison (I love pro line 21), Flight deck comfort comparison and realistic range WITHOUT extended periods over FL410 in the 680. Also, is the Sovereign's ride any better than the Excel? Any pure Sovereign info is welcome. I am very familiar with the Hawker.

My company used to have an 800XP, and we now have a Sovereign.
I've found the Honeywell avonics to be fine, contrary to many others. We do not have electronic charts, and I understand that those aircraft that have electronic charts have lots more problems than the ones without the electronic charts.

Even though the cockpit is more narrow than the Hawker, I find it to be more comfortable. The temperature is easily controlled within one degree, and the seats are better.

I flew a 5+01 leg the other day at FL390, and landed with 2,800 lbs of fuel. So, if you want to land with 2,000 lbs of fuel you could do 5+30, and if you want to land with 1,500 lbs of fuel, you could do about 5+50. If you climbed to FL410, you could exceed 6 hours and land with 45 minutes of fuel. 2,200 lbs hour 1, and 1,500 lbs thereafter is a good rule of thumb.

I haven't flown the Excel, so can't compare the rides in turbulence. The Sovereign isn't a great ride in bumps, but it helps to pull the power back a little.

Lmfao...so flying above 410 constitutes VERY dangerous operations (for a 450 airplane) in your world? Are you sure you aren't flying a king air?

The Sovereign is a FL470 airplane.

Thanks for the outstanding reply reply Willy. That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Going to see the Sovereign at the Cessna plant while I am in recurrent next week.

How is the A/C up front? Hawker is the only plane I have yet to be hot up front in. Noise level? Thanks again!

Cabin temperature is right on, as selected, as mentioned above. Cockpit is very quiet, especially at the higher altitudes.

The big negative for the 680 was the need to pull it way back for LRC. 388kts according to Conklin. That and a cabin like the Excel. Disclaimer...I have no direct experience with the 680, just what the books told me when shopping.

No need for LRC for any flight that I have done. I did a 5+41 leg last week, and landed with 2,700 lbs of fuel. Max altitude was FL430.

 

[400A]

Great info SPX! Thanks!

I believe in the demo aircraft I sat in, someone may have had the pedals all the way up. I am only 5'11 and my knees almost hit the yoke, and the seat was all the way back.

I have heard the same issue about the chart upgrade. Looks to me like the best option for charts and XM is I-pads with an external antenna.

Believe me. If the boss decides that is the one he wants, I will strap it on and drive it.

The demo pilot agreed with you. Other than for weather, there is no real reason to run it over FL430.

In my opinion, the cabin seats were far more comfortable than the hawker.
I just wish they had made about 6" less galley and given that to the flight deck.

 

[gret]

Good info in this thread.

Learned a lot from guys who appear to have their act together.

 

[400A]

We had a similar task a few months ago, we looked at both the Cessna and the Hawker plus the CL300. We recommended the CL300 to the higher ups. Due to the DEALS that Challenger was offering it was cheaper to operate for the first 5 years than the Cessna. We disregarded the Hawker due to the financial issues. The Sovereign is/was the plane for us and our mission, but the deal from Challenger was too good to not recommend....... The CL300 was being discounted by 20% and we would only pay for fuel for the first 5 years / 1500 hrs. This was a similar deal to what Hawker was offering but they were even more than 20% off, they really wanted to sell a plane, but we just could not in good conscious recommend a company going into bankruptcy.

The decision was made to keep what we have Citation (XLS). I can only assume we will keep the plane for a few more years until the market recovers then they will buy a Challenger at a premium , but that is just my opinion (haha)

Good luck with the choice, I liked the Hawker systems better than Cessna but then again I flew and loved the DC8, so when in doubt run a cable to it:laugh:.

I have to agree with you on the systems. For every new technology gadget the new Hawkers have, it has a manual back up. No boosted controls, a manual trim wheel for back up and very good redundancy.

We have missed one leg in 4 years. Hard to leave your comfort zone sometimes. With knowledge of 900's trading around the 10m mark, it is hard to not keep it on the table. We did differences while we were in recurrent just in case.

I also hate to buy the last of a model right before a major upgrade. Cessna will not speak of it, but as we were waiting in the terminal at ICT, a green sovereign landed with the big probe on the nose and unique winglets. Rumored to have a Garmin 5000 avionics suite. It would make since with the Ten, Latitude and Longitude getting the same.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Lmfao...so flying above 410 constitutes VERY dangerous operations (for a 450 airplane) in your world?

Yes. Flying above FL410 is inherently more dangerous than below. And if I was interviewing the two of you, I'd pick the guy that is acutely aware of those dangers over the guy that is cavalier about those dangers. As a pilot, your number one job is risk management.

 

[SCT]

KA, I agree that you can't be "cavalier" about operations above 41 but it happens everyday. I think it would be unprofessional not to operate an aircraft in it's proper flight profile. I can't imagine a G550/Global crew never operating their aircraft above 410.

 

[BoilerUP]

Interesting how usually the pilots who aren't worried about operating above FL410 are the ones who do it regularly, and the ones concerned about it have little or no experience at those altitudes.

I'm not certain the TUC difference between FL410 and FL450 is really consequential in the event of an explosive decompression...

 

[Bleeds On]

Interesting how usually the pilots who aren't worried about operating above FL410 are the ones who do it regularly, and the ones concerned about it have little or no experience at those altitudes.

I'm not certain the TUC difference between FL410 and FL450 is really consequential in the event of an explosive decompression...

This has me thinking...Does either aircraft have Emergency Descent Mode(auto-pilot brings you to 15,000' if loss of cabin pressure above FL300)? The XLS has it so I'd assume newer 680's do as well. It's a peace of mind thing for sure.

Btw, according to FSI, TUC at FL400 is 15-20 seconds, FL450 is 9-15 seconds. Not sure if that's for a person of average health or a maximum.

 

[Sammy]

C680 as automatic descent mode. Pilots must retard throttles to idle and extend speed brakes too. If it stalls at the bottom of the descent, AP will kick off.

 

[CDogg]

I know for a fact the Hawker will sit on it's .80 red line all day long. Being that the Sovereign has the some red line, in what part of your world is that faster?

If you would like that in knots, Sovereign = 458 900XP = 465... (See it all the time)

What kind of Hawker are you flying? The 4000?? Because that's the only Hawker I've flown that will sit on .80 "all day long".

Unless you are flying down below FL350, ISA + 20 and have the thing at max continuous, I have a hard time believing you are sitting on .80 and 465 TAS.

You are also comparing a Mid to a Super... so of course the 680 is going to be bigger.

Just get a Challenger 300 and be done with it. Direct operating cost is very close... and if you're going to spend the cash on a 680, the 300 is a much better buy.

 

[CDogg]

So... You endorse regulation infraction and VERY dangerous operations? Does YOUR boss know this? But yes, I have explained it to my boss in great detail.

While you mention regs - when you go in for a medical do you answer the questionaire 100% truthful and put down every single doctor visit and pill you have popped?

I guess if you just write in "my boss already knows this" it makes it ok right?

 

[con-pilot]

Guess I'm old school, as for pilots not wanting to operate their aircraft to the specifications and certification of the aircraft for maximum performance to operate at FL410 or above, because they don't want to wear a oxygen mask, they seems to have forgotten that they are flying the aircraft for the people in the back, they are not back there because you have graciously agreed to fly the aircraft for them. You know, the ones that paid for it and pay your salary.

I never cared for wearing an oxygen mask either, but you do your job if you are a professional. If that means wearing an oxygen mask for a few hours, well get use to it. Just how long would a pilot in the military last flying fighters if they refused to wear an oxygen mask?

 

[400A]

While you mention regs - when you go in for a medical do you answer the questionaire 100% truthful and put down every single doctor visit and pill you have popped?

As a matter of fact, yes I do! You should try honesty some time!

 

[400A]

What kind of Hawker are you flying? The 4000?? Because that's the only Hawker I've flown that will sit on .80 "all day long".

Unless you are flying down below FL350, ISA + 20 and have the thing at max continuous, I have a hard time believing you are sitting on .80 and 465 TAS.

You are also comparing a Mid to a Super... so of course the 680 is going to be bigger.

Just get a Challenger 300 and be done with it. Direct operating cost is very close... and if you're going to spend the cash on a 680, the 300 is a much better buy.

All wrong hoss.... very gentle on my engines.

 

[400A]

This has me thinking...Does either aircraft have Emergency Descent Mode(auto-pilot brings you to 15,000' if loss of cabin pressure above FL300)? The XLS has it so I'd assume newer 680's do as well. It's a peace of mind thing for sure.

Btw, according to FSI, TUC at FL400 is 15-20 seconds, FL450 is 9-15 seconds. Not sure if that's for a person of average health or a maximum.

Cut all those numbers in half for explosive.

 

[400A]

KA, I agree that you can't be "cavalier" about operations above 41 but it happens everyday. I think it would be unprofessional not to operate an aircraft in it's proper flight profile. I can't imagine a G550/Global crew never operating their aircraft above 410.

Following the regs is unprofessional???? Interesting concept. BTW.... Been to 450 many times, with the mask. Not going to do it for 7 hours.