There are. Ok maybe not hundreds. I personally know several guys who have done it and are doing it. Guy I used to fly with would hitch rides on lears at his previous job (cargo). He said he would encourage them to do it and they would....multiple times! My dad's best friend was a lear demo pilot back in the 70's and they did it all the time. As part of the demo in some cases! A personal friend of mine, who read this thread, rolls corporate jets all the time and "doesn't see what the big deal is as long as you know what your doing". He considers himself to be a superior aviator because he does it. I say support your local flying club and find a Citabria or a Great lakes and get it out of your system.
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Hawker 800XP....snap rolled 3-4 times
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There are. Ok maybe not hundreds. I personally know several guys who have done it and are doing it. Guy I used to fly with would hitch rides on lears at his previous job (cargo). He said he would encourage them to do it and they would....multiple times! My dad's best friend was a lear demo pilot back in the 70's and they did it all the time. As part of the demo in some cases! A personal friend of mine, who read this thread, rolls corporate jets all the time and "doesn't see what the big deal is as long as you know what your doing". He considers himself to be a superior aviator because he does it. I say support your local flying club and find a Citabria or a Great lakes and get it out of your system.
siucavflight
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BEfly, I am not saying that it does not happen. In fact at certain departments it may happen to the same plane over and over again all of the time, but I believe that reflects on the professionalism at each of those departments. I am saying where I work I know for a fact it does not happen, and I know plenty of other departments where it does not happen.
Basil
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I remember watching a documentary on the Concorde years ago. A retired British Airways Captain was talking about his first training flight in the aircraft (no pax) when he was an FO. He said that the Training Captain rolled the Concorde, then gave him the controls (er, handling) and said something like, "Right...I've rolled it around, now you roll it back!" which the FO did. Given the small size of the Concorde fleet, it's possible that every one was rolled, at least at BA.
Anyone hear about other airliners intentionally rolled, other than Tex Johnston in the 707?
Anyone hear about other airliners intentionally rolled, other than Tex Johnston in the 707?
siucavflight
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Ha, that would be awesome to see a concord rolling. But no I have not heard of any airliners being rolled.
... and these are the kind of tools that don't belong flying.
There's a video of that somewhere. I think it was in Michigan. Someone rolled a DC-8 too maybe it was him.
CopilotDoug
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I was just thinking the same thing...at least he didn't have to pay his pilot much!
Caveman
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Hundreds? Every day? C'mon Fly91, that's quite a stretch. I think bizjets are rolled more than some of us want to believe. It probably never happens at places like NJA, but it does happen at less regulated companies and private small airplane operations.
How many of us have NEVER done dumb shiite in an airplane? I know I've done my share, but the more experience we get we're less likely to say "Hey, watch this." I cringe when I look back at my formative years of flying and remember some of the boneheaded things I did. Good or bad, it's part of the process whether you come up flying military, instructing, corporate or freight. As our flying progresses we get a little wiser and we start making better decisions. Nobody is out there on ferry flights rolling airliners and G550s, but the young guns and stupid old guys at small companies are still doing doing dumb shiite when they think no one is looking. Hell, truth be told it would probably happen more often in bigger planes if it wasn't for FDRs and cockpit tapes.
Just because you don't hear a lot about guys flying less than 8 hours bottle to throttle, or bizjet aileron rolls, or smoking dope doesn't mean it doesn't happen. All that stuff is illegal. People that do illegal things generally keep it to themselves.
I agree with Fly91. It probably happens more than you think (but not hundreds of times every day).
One more thing. An aileron roll in a Lear on the glide slope with no more than a dot of deflection? BS. First of all I don't buy anybody is stupid enough to try to roll an airplane while on an ILS. The one dot deflection is just frosting on a BS story. If you're gonna tell a tall tale you might as well go big and you certainly did that, but you went too far. I'm not buying it for one second unless the guys last name was Hoover.
How many of us have NEVER done dumb shiite in an airplane? I know I've done my share, but the more experience we get we're less likely to say "Hey, watch this." I cringe when I look back at my formative years of flying and remember some of the boneheaded things I did. Good or bad, it's part of the process whether you come up flying military, instructing, corporate or freight. As our flying progresses we get a little wiser and we start making better decisions. Nobody is out there on ferry flights rolling airliners and G550s, but the young guns and stupid old guys at small companies are still doing doing dumb shiite when they think no one is looking. Hell, truth be told it would probably happen more often in bigger planes if it wasn't for FDRs and cockpit tapes.
Just because you don't hear a lot about guys flying less than 8 hours bottle to throttle, or bizjet aileron rolls, or smoking dope doesn't mean it doesn't happen. All that stuff is illegal. People that do illegal things generally keep it to themselves.
I agree with Fly91. It probably happens more than you think (but not hundreds of times every day).
One more thing. An aileron roll in a Lear on the glide slope with no more than a dot of deflection? BS. First of all I don't buy anybody is stupid enough to try to roll an airplane while on an ILS. The one dot deflection is just frosting on a BS story. If you're gonna tell a tall tale you might as well go big and you certainly did that, but you went too far. I'm not buying it for one second unless the guys last name was Hoover.
CopilotDoug
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Bobby Younkin
OK, I know this guy is a professional aerobatic perform (Albeit a dead one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjzr-muZpEw
But whose to say these two clowns aren't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR-FASIMOTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ahC84ATzA8
OK, I know this guy is a professional aerobatic perform (Albeit a dead one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjzr-muZpEw
But whose to say these two clowns aren't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR-FASIMOTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ahC84ATzA8
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I know for a fact that a bunch of Gulfstreams have been rolled to death. But for the most part, its the smaller jets that people seem to roll all the time.
44,000 planes have taken off in the past 24 hours. If you think that AT LEAST 200 of them were not rolled on a dead leg, you're being naive man. Think about south America and the rest of the world too.
The only way you can know for a 100% fact that it doesn;'t happen at your flight department is if YOU go on every flight.
siucavflight
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Sonny Crockett
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A said earlier in this thread, the co-pilot said that the captain was snapping it very abruptly and full left or right with the yoke. Not a textbook snap roll as one would do in an aerobatic plane. Bury the yoke in a rear corner with corresponding rudder, the tail may have broken off and possibly the inside wing from the negative G's imposed on it. The right wing on this plane is already bent beyond repair.
Boch
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No negitive G in a positive snap. you should know that with your aerobatic experiance.
If he tried to do a snap roll in a Hawker I'm pretty sure that right wing would have been more bent than it was, thats what I'm saying. He did the rolls to the left, that right wing was bent downward, as in NEGATIVE G loading. A Hawker cannot do a true snap roll, but if tried, you might snap that wing off.
I believe this one. The lear has a fast rate of roll. None of the YouTube videos show someone trying a high rate lear roll.
The owner of one company I worked for rolled right after take off at about two hundred and fifty feet. By the time I realized what he was doing we were already upside down.
Another company I worked for used the Lear on a military contract for radar training and some air combat maneuvering. If the tiptanks are empty the airplane can be maneuvered very aggressively in roll without damaging the airframe.
It would be interesting to do in a wind tunnel. Swept wing stalls are reportedly violent because they don't develop in a prdictable fashion like a wing with washout or stall strips. I'd also bet on at least one compressor stall. It might even deep-stall and go downhill tail-first. noooo thanks
I did two re-certification flights in two different Lears over the years with Lear Test Pilots. One was after a bird strike and the other required some access panels near the leading edges to be removed for wing tank work.
Those guys throw the Lear around like you wouldn't believe. Nothing stupid, they didn't roll it, but 90* of bank was reached several times as well as probably 40-50* of pitch up and down. Not too mention about 20 stalls on each flight for the certification.
You know how in the Lears you're supposed to bank to 90* to let the nose fall through the horizon to recover from a nose high-decreasing airspeed unusal attitude....because they do not like negative G's.....it feels, looks and works exactly like in the sim.
First of all, the 'Captain' was flying an "N" numbered aircraft. To legally operate an "N" number aircraft was a crewmember, your certificate must match the nationality of the Aircraft registration or the nationality of the airspace. Therefore, the 'Captain' needed to have an FAA certificate.
The FAA can file violations all day long. It is up to Legal to decide to go any further. It has been the FAA's practice to file against the First Officer also, especially if the PIC is beyond the FAA's authority, i.e. dead, outside the country, etc.
Hawker is a pretty tough aircraft. It was originally built to British military standards and was used as a multi engine trainer for the RAF for many years. It is possible that it was snapped. But it is quite likely we will never know completely.
I'm sure he had a sing-off for a temp license like so many of them do.
A friend of mine messed up pretty bad leaving Munich Germany in a 747, only he got into trouble. They don't always go after the sic. After all, the FAA knows that captains do things that an sic sometimes can do absolutely nothing about. It would be amazingly unfair to violate sic's in alot of cases for a captains actions/decisions.
We all know now. The co-pilot admitted to every detail of what took place. Why would he say that and possibly get into trouble when he could have just stuck to the hard landing story. Thats why the rumor is he might get a pass. I think the FAA is screwed in going after some guy living in Mexico.
Just like with Personal Jet, the captain admitted the rolls, 3 of them. Its over, they are just waiting to see what the punishment will be.
ackattacker
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I think that, given the damage, the specific type of roll was a "F'd up roll"
I believe that's the correct technical term.
siucavflight
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I understand the story being told but it doesn't agree with the facts from the NTSB report or the icao report. I believe the story is just that: a BS internet story. The NTSB report(from the Mexican DGAC) states that the damage occurred in March, 2008 from a hard landing. I will go out on a limb and guess that the passengers were interviewed and I think some of the passengers might have spoken up about any ridiculous inflight maneuvering.
From http://www.icao.int/icaonet/adrep/indexes/032008.htm#08200294
ICAO File : 08200294
Occurrence Class
Accident
Status
Open
Date
4/03/08
Time
8:50:00 AM
State of occurrence
Mexico
Damage
Substantial
Location
Monterrey
Occurrence categories
ARC: Abnormal runway contact
Narrative
Unofficial: At 0808 central standard time N167DD, a British Aerospace BAE 125 model 800A was substantially damaged while landing on runway 02 at Aeropuerta de Norte, near Monterrey, Mexico. After landing the crew taxied the airplane to the hanger and did not report the occurrence. Maintenance personnel noticed substantial damage to the fuselage and wings while performing routine maintenance. The passenger airplane, serial number 258068, is owned by Aircraft Guaranty Holdings and Trust LLC Trustee in Houston, Texas. The flight initiated in Toluca, Mexico with Monterrey, Mexico as the intended destination. None of crew and passengers were injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight. The investigation is under the jurisdiction and control of the Government of the Republic of Mexico. Any further information may be obtained from: Secretaria de Comunicaciones y Trasportes Direccion General de Aeronautica Civil (DGAC) Providencia 807, Cuarto Piso Colonia del Valle, Codigo Postal 03100 Mexico, D.F. This report is for informational purposes only and contains only information released by, or obtained from the DGAC of the Republic of Mexico. ICAO NOTE (ASCEND): Insurance report says March 4 and includes a damage survey dated March 5. Maybe March 28 was when it was reported to the authorities. Raytheon has apparently said that the extent of the damage to the fuselage makes it unrepairable.
Sequence of events
1 Aircraft operation general - Aircraft handling - Hard landing during Powered aircraft - Landing - Level off-touchdown
Aircraft Information
Registration
N167DD
Operator
Make/Model
BRITISH AEROSPACE - 125 SERIES 800
Operation type
Commercial Air Transport - Non-scheduled revenue ops - Domestic - Passenger
Injuries
Fatal
Serious
Minor
None
Unknown
Crew
2
Pax
siucavflight
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Maybe he was just misinformed. In any case the damage happened over a year ago. The accident reports say a hard landing. If anyone still wants to claim it was rolled it happened more than a year ago and the owner certainly wasn't standing there shocked to see the condition of the airplane when it rolled in to FXE a few weeks ago. And the crew knew the condition of the aircraft before it took off from Mexico, most likely with some sort of ferry permit. So much for the story of the scumbag Mexican captain who ran away blah, blah, blah.
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