Hawker 800XP....snap rolled 3-4 times

[aubrey770]

I am disappointed...I read both pages of this thread before I opened the picture. I was hoping that it was the XP that I captained out of Toluca in 2001. I couldn't have happened to nicer owners.

 

[Fly91]

I am sorry but that's rubbish- the Mexican equivalent is the investigating authority but the NTSB would have investigated had it been under their authority.

DFW08WA091
On March 28, 2008, at 0808 central standard time N167DD, a British Aerospace BAE 125 model 800A was substantially damaged while landing on runway 02 at Aeropuerta de Norte, near Monterrey, Mexico. After landing the crew taxied the airplane to the hanger and did not report the occurrence. Maintenance personnel noticed substantial damage to the fuselage and wings while performing routine maintenance.

The passenger airplane, serial number 258068, is owned by Aircraft Guaranty Holdings and Trust LLC Trustee in Houston, Texas. The flight initiated in Toluca, Mexico with Monterrey, Mexico as the intended destination. None of crew and passengers were injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight.

The investigation is under the jurisdiction and control of the Government of the Republic of Mexico. Any further information may be obtained from:

Secretaria de Comunicaciones y Trasportes
Direccion General de Aeronautica Civil (DGAC)
Providencia 807, Cuarto Piso
Colonia del Valle, Codigo Postal 03100
Mexico, D.F.

Thats an unintentional aircraft accident. It wasn't purposely done and there were passengers aboard. It should be reported. This moron captain rolled it 4 times, and finally the truth was told. So there is nothing to investigate.

Not trying to argue, but the FAA has already said that the Mexican captain is long gone and they have no authority over him.

Thats obviously the case here because the NTSB was never even notified. The Mexican guy is long gone and from what everyone has heard, as well as hearing from the FAA, he's on his own. The only people that have ever been seen at the FBO invesitgating this situation was the FAA and the insurance company. Thats it.

Rick1128:From what I have seen they will violate both of them. It is a crew aircraft. The Captain needed an FAA certificate to fly the aircraft in US airspace so they can get him through that. If he didn't have an FAA certificate, they could start action against the C/P and the owner for that also.

Again, the only people involved in this are the FAA and the insurance company, the NTSB has no interest whatsoever. And you do not need an FAA certificate to fly into the USA. You trying to say every British Airways, Cathay Pacific and any other countries airlines, their pilots all have FAA certificate? They don't.

And don't be so sure about the co-pilot getting violated, he has a very good chance of nothing happening to him. Its not his fault. He did what the azzhole captain said to do. Short of a mutany, what can he do about a captain that wants to roll the plane?

 

[Fly91]

I am absolutely amazed the insurance company has not written this off, fast!
That is one liability trail that is never going away. That airframe is going to have problems forever, and God forbid it has a catastrophic failure in the coming years. For any reason.
Not to mention the resale value has dropped to nothing. No intelligent buyer would ever consider it.

Good luck, someone is going to need it.

Hung

Thats what I'm thinking.

Think about the unaware pilots in the future that will be flying this thing.

But as I said earlier, they are still tearing into it and it hasen't yet gotten the 100% return to service go-ahead. They keep finding more things. So they may find that NEXT thing that grounds it forever.

 

[aubrey770]

Again, the only people involved in this are the FAA and the insurance company, the NTSB has no interest whatsoever. And you do not need an FAA certificate to fly into the USA. You trying to say every British Airways, Cathay Pacific and any other countries airlines, their pilots all have FAA certificate? They don't.

I think that foreign pilots are required to have proper FAA certificates to fly a US registered airplane. The only exception is for US registered airplanes that are leased to foreign operators.

 

[Rokit88]

I am absolutely amazed the insurance company has not written this off, fast!
That is one liability trail that is never going away. That airframe is going to have problems forever, and God forbid it has a catastrophic failure in the coming years. For any reason.
Not to mention the resale value has dropped to nothing. No intelligent buyer would ever consider it.

Good luck, someone is going to need it.

The only thing that airframe is good for now is as an airplane on a stick!

 

[Sandhawk]

'Cause wet-backs ain't that smart!

:bomb:

 

[Hamburger]

I think it's the funniest thing I've heard all day. The owner got exactly what he paid for. :laugh:

 

[Boch]

As I was saying in an other post... everyone can talk about the "1G roll" all you want, but I dont buy it. rolling a biz jet is not something you can practice. Even in a aerobatic mount the perfect 1G roll needs to be done a few times to get perfect. Thats something you cant do with your Hawker. Im sure the Mexican pilot was not out to total the plane that day.

 

[corp_da20_guy]

Isn't that the same aircraft that had been sitting in LIT?

 

[Say Again Over]

Interesting thread, seems like the Feds could nail them on the old catch all; FAR 91.13 Careless or reckless operation.

 

[Fly91]

Say what? How do you figure? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty confident that none of the planes at NJA have been rolled. I'd bet the same goes for our competitors as well.

You're as naive as naive can possibly be.......

Please don't take offense to this.......but you are very ignorant. NJ planes have been rolled since day one and will continue to be rolled as long as they own planes. Sorry my friend.

I know 3 pilots there that have rolled the shiat out of planes for the past 7 years.

Do you think NJA is some special company or something? They are NOTHING more than a charter company with alot of planes. Gimmie a break.

 

[Fly91]

As I was saying in an other post... everyone can talk about the "1G roll" all you want, but I dont buy it. rolling a biz jet is not something you can practice. Even in a aerobatic mount the perfect 1G roll needs to be done a few times to get perfect. Thats something you cant do with your Hawker. Im sure the Mexican pilot was not out to total the plane that day.

Plain and simple................anyone who thinks a plane cannot be rolled without doing ANY DAMAGE at all...to any aircraft on earth....is simply an ignorant idiot. Or to be put in more nicely terms....they just don't get it.

Lets not turn this into a thread saying that non-aerobatic planes cannot be rolled, because unless you're a moron....any plane can be rolled 500 times without causing a SPEC of damage.

End of discussion on that.

 

[Fly91]

I'm going out to the airport on Monday. I'll be getting an update ion what they found with the wing roots, the tail cone section and empanage.

I'll post about it here.


And BTW....the Lear 35 that was rolled 3 times over Pompano Beach by Personal Jet Charter 3 weeks ago......the plane is 100% perfect and un-affected. And you can bet your life and the life of your entire family that its been rolled 500 times in its lifetime. So everyone that thinks a plane falls apart when its rolled, wake the hell up and stop your BS talk about something you have no clue about.

 

[wrxpilot]

Wow. WTF is it with FXE and idiots like this?

I'd be surprised if the FAA gives the f/o a pass. He's a required crew member that shares responsibility for the flight. They'll come down harder on the PIC for sure, but as with the airnet lear roll, the f/o will face the consequences of just sitting there letting the world roll by.

 

[wrxpilot]

And BTW....the Lear 35 that was rolled 3 times over Pompano Beach by Personal Jet Charter 3 weeks ago......the plane is 100% perfect and un-affected. And you can bet your life and the life of your entire family that its been rolled 500 times in its lifetime. So everyone that thinks a plane falls apart when its rolled, wake the hell up and stop your BS talk about something you have no clue about.

From the way it is now sounding, the Lear 35 you're referring to didn't do any rolls, it just did a couple of low passes. The rolls were attributed to ground witnesses, who think a climbing 30 deg bank is a roll.

You are really defensive about rolls for some reason, almost hostile. It sounds a little weird, just FYI.

I do however think most pilots will agree with you - a properly executed roll will not result in any damage. Here's an example of that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw2qPLEgKdQ

The problem is that a lot of pilots have very little aerobatic experience, and decide to "learn" using the company equipment. That's when things get ugly, as demonstrated by this example:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070221X00205&key=1

 

[wrxpilot]

Did anyone else see the post in this thread by G21Agoose? This a/c was damaged in an accident 1 year ago in Mexico from a hard landing.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1798620&postcount=18

Fly91, it sounds like somebody's feeding you a line of BS about this plane. Unless it was involved in a hard landing AND had an A-hole flight crew ferry it over and roll it. That'd be one unlucky plane.

 

[siucavflight]

Fly91, cool pictures, but you are seriously defensive of rolls.

 

[Boch]

Fly91, I have considerable aerobatic experience and do not enjoy you calling me an idiot about such a topic.

I guess all I have to say is, I have seen photos of a Hawker 800XP that WAS ROLLED and nearly totaled. Want to see the photos? check out the begining of this thread.

Do you think that the pilot trashed this plane on purpose?

 

[phr8dawg]

My opinions on this topic have been posted before. There is one minor little detail that seems to be missing here: the flight recorder. Your unauthorized aerobatics are likely recorded in glass ships, as well as any overtemps in the flight. Some of these boxes have hundreds of recording points.

How did you think the paths of Flight 91 and other airlines are recreated?

It isn't your plane, what right do you have to abuse it and threaten the lives of everyone? Idiots who roll passenger aircraft should be fired. Period.

PS: No, I never have. Only CAPS, Citabrias, Pitts....

 

[Captain Dork]

In defense of Correcting... I concur none, or very few fractional airplanes have ever been rolled. (Options Pilot) I haven't seen or heard of it, ever.

More than a decade ago I flew in old Lears and Beech 18's (statute of limitations)for a Yipsilani based frieght operator, and probably a third of the pilot group regularily rolled the airplanes, some terribly. One Chief Pilot rolled a Lear 24 down the ILS keeping it within one bar of defection. Of course he owned his own Pitts, also. He passed away of a heart attack, so no harm.

Really, the fractionals are pretty sedate, generally grown-ups with dependants. And a Hawker and Beechjet do not feel like an acrobatics friendly airplanes, more like Buicks.