Hawker 800XP....snap rolled 3-4 times

[Fly91]

Say what? How do you figure? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty confident that none of the planes at NJA have been rolled. I'd bet the same goes for our competitors as well.

You're as naive as naive can possibly be.......

Please don't take offense to this.......but you are very ignorant. NJ planes have been rolled since day one and will continue to be rolled as long as they own planes. Sorry my friend.

I know 3 pilots there that have rolled the shiat out of planes for the past 7 years.

Do you think NJA is some special company or something? They are NOTHING more than a charter company with alot of planes. Gimmie a break.

 

[Fly91]

As I was saying in an other post... everyone can talk about the "1G roll" all you want, but I dont buy it. rolling a biz jet is not something you can practice. Even in a aerobatic mount the perfect 1G roll needs to be done a few times to get perfect. Thats something you cant do with your Hawker. Im sure the Mexican pilot was not out to total the plane that day.

Plain and simple................anyone who thinks a plane cannot be rolled without doing ANY DAMAGE at all...to any aircraft on earth....is simply an ignorant idiot. Or to be put in more nicely terms....they just don't get it.

Lets not turn this into a thread saying that non-aerobatic planes cannot be rolled, because unless you're a moron....any plane can be rolled 500 times without causing a SPEC of damage.

End of discussion on that.

 

[Fly91]

I'm going out to the airport on Monday. I'll be getting an update ion what they found with the wing roots, the tail cone section and empanage.

I'll post about it here.


And BTW....the Lear 35 that was rolled 3 times over Pompano Beach by Personal Jet Charter 3 weeks ago......the plane is 100% perfect and un-affected. And you can bet your life and the life of your entire family that its been rolled 500 times in its lifetime. So everyone that thinks a plane falls apart when its rolled, wake the hell up and stop your BS talk about something you have no clue about.

 

[wrxpilot]

Wow. WTF is it with FXE and idiots like this?

I'd be surprised if the FAA gives the f/o a pass. He's a required crew member that shares responsibility for the flight. They'll come down harder on the PIC for sure, but as with the airnet lear roll, the f/o will face the consequences of just sitting there letting the world roll by.

 

[wrxpilot]

And BTW....the Lear 35 that was rolled 3 times over Pompano Beach by Personal Jet Charter 3 weeks ago......the plane is 100% perfect and un-affected. And you can bet your life and the life of your entire family that its been rolled 500 times in its lifetime. So everyone that thinks a plane falls apart when its rolled, wake the hell up and stop your BS talk about something you have no clue about.

From the way it is now sounding, the Lear 35 you're referring to didn't do any rolls, it just did a couple of low passes. The rolls were attributed to ground witnesses, who think a climbing 30 deg bank is a roll.

You are really defensive about rolls for some reason, almost hostile. It sounds a little weird, just FYI.

I do however think most pilots will agree with you - a properly executed roll will not result in any damage. Here's an example of that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw2qPLEgKdQ

The problem is that a lot of pilots have very little aerobatic experience, and decide to "learn" using the company equipment. That's when things get ugly, as demonstrated by this example:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070221X00205&key=1

 

[wrxpilot]

Did anyone else see the post in this thread by G21Agoose? This a/c was damaged in an accident 1 year ago in Mexico from a hard landing.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1798620&postcount=18

Fly91, it sounds like somebody's feeding you a line of BS about this plane. Unless it was involved in a hard landing AND had an A-hole flight crew ferry it over and roll it. That'd be one unlucky plane.

 

[siucavflight]

Fly91, cool pictures, but you are seriously defensive of rolls.

 

[Boch]

Fly91, I have considerable aerobatic experience and do not enjoy you calling me an idiot about such a topic.

I guess all I have to say is, I have seen photos of a Hawker 800XP that WAS ROLLED and nearly totaled. Want to see the photos? check out the begining of this thread.

Do you think that the pilot trashed this plane on purpose?

 

[phr8dawg]

My opinions on this topic have been posted before. There is one minor little detail that seems to be missing here: the flight recorder. Your unauthorized aerobatics are likely recorded in glass ships, as well as any overtemps in the flight. Some of these boxes have hundreds of recording points.

How did you think the paths of Flight 91 and other airlines are recreated?

It isn't your plane, what right do you have to abuse it and threaten the lives of everyone? Idiots who roll passenger aircraft should be fired. Period.

PS: No, I never have. Only CAPS, Citabrias, Pitts....

 

[Captain Dork]

In defense of Correcting... I concur none, or very few fractional airplanes have ever been rolled. (Options Pilot) I haven't seen or heard of it, ever.

More than a decade ago I flew in old Lears and Beech 18's (statute of limitations)for a Yipsilani based frieght operator, and probably a third of the pilot group regularily rolled the airplanes, some terribly. One Chief Pilot rolled a Lear 24 down the ILS keeping it within one bar of defection. Of course he owned his own Pitts, also. He passed away of a heart attack, so no harm.

Really, the fractionals are pretty sedate, generally grown-ups with dependants. And a Hawker and Beechjet do not feel like an acrobatics friendly airplanes, more like Buicks.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Say what? How do you figure? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty confident that none of the planes at NJA have been rolled. I'd bet the same goes for our competitors as well.

Perhaps things have changed at Cessna, but back in the day airplanes being rolled during production flight test (not experimental) was pretty "normal". Citations, Conquests, 300-400 series. Didn't matter. They all were rolled.

 

[Fly91]

Wow. WTF is it with FXE and idiots like this?

I'd be surprised if the FAA gives the f/o a pass. He's a required crew member that shares responsibility for the flight. They'll come down harder on the PIC for sure, but as with the airnet lear roll, the f/o will face the consequences of just sitting there letting the world roll by.

I know the captain, name is Brian, co-pilot was Jess, she is the girlfriend of the chief pilot there. THEY ROLLED IT 3 TIMES. They admitted to that.

She, the co-pilot, being the girlfriend of the chief pilot......damn well knew better than to do that. She will most likely get violated. Plus, she lawyered up instead of telling the FAA what happened, the FAA does not like when pilots lawyer up. She is finished for sure. But Brian will also most likely get revoked.


Like I said earlier, co-pilots for the most part are wussies and won't tell a captain that if he does something stupid on purpose that they will take the plane from them. And if that happened, there would be a struggle and an argument in the cockpit. There's other ways to get control of the plane.

Give you an example of what I did once when a captain was going to do something to us one day. In short, bad weather, got in line and were #14 for landing because all the ailiners from MIA and FLL had to come to PBI because those two airports were closed. After trying the VOR approach into Boca and going missed, then getting vectored all over carnation because of crazy traffic flow, we were very low on fuel in our Lear 25. This moron captain was going to get in line, #14 for landing. I said there's no way we can go 30 miles in the Atlantic, then 30 miles back, with the fuel we had and hope we make it down on the first try. Planes were going missed approach into PBI because of the weather. He disagreed, I said NO, he disagreed again and I said NO, he disagreed one last time. I picked up the mic and told tower that we were "minimum fuel" and had to land immediately. That was better than wrestling the plane from him with passengers watching in crappy weather. The dickhead captain had no choice but to cut in line and land immediately. There's more than one way to take control of the aircraft when the captain makes a stupid decision. The co-pilot becomes the captain at that point, as far as I'm concerned.

So, the co-pilot on the Hawker could have picked up the mic and reported what the captain was going to do to ATC. He would have gotten a guaranteed pass if he did that.

 

[AC560]

I do however think most pilots will agree with you - a properly executed roll will not result in any damage. Here's an example of that:

Hoover flies an experimental with inverted oil systems among other modifications. It is probably fair to say a aileron roll won't hurt the airframe if done properly. I think a fair argument can be made that rolling/looping aircraft not intended for acrobatics can hurt things attached to the airframe though.

 

[Fly91]

Did anyone else see the post in this thread by G21Agoose? This a/c was damaged in an accident 1 year ago in Mexico from a hard landing.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1798620&postcount=18

Fly91, it sounds like somebody's feeding you a line of BS about this plane. Unless it was involved in a hard landing AND had an A-hole flight crew ferry it over and roll it. That'd be one unlucky plane.

As I said on page one, if anyone else has other info, lets hear it. This is what I'm being told by the mechanics, line guys, the FBO manager who's in charge of fixing the plane for the owner and pilots who know the co-pilot.

And the hard landing BS, thats what the captain said he did to cover up what he really did. The co-pilot admitted the rolls. And a hard landing cannot twist an entire plane all in the same direction around the entire fuse. The gear was perfect, the tires were fine. There was no hard landing.

So..........

 

[Fly91]

Fly91, cool pictures, but you are seriously defensive of rolls.

I'm just stating a fact, any plane can be rolled and absolutely nothing will get damaged, if done properly. Thats all. We all saw the Boeing 707 do a nice roll, it was fine. Bob Hoover for decades has been doing it. And again, hundreds of corporate jets are rolled every day, world wide. Just reality. Its just that most people who do it don;'t openly talk about it.