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Hawker 800XP....snap rolled 3-4 times

Fly91

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Sorry for the delay in posting the pics like I said I would. When I went back the next day to take good pics of it with my digital camera the plane had been moved across the field so the manufacturer's airframe guys could inspect it. Then I had a 6-day trip I just got back from. UNBELIEVABLY, they cleared it to fly again, but it needs to almost be rebuilt from tip-to-tail and bent back into shape.

They are removing all the skin from the entire plane. I'm going out there tomorrow to get pics of whats left.

I was only able to get 3 pics the first day I saw it with my camera. They don't do justice at all. If you saw it in person your jaw would have hit the ground.

***If you want the story of what happened and a little info on the pilots, read at the bottom if you want to.***

This is the best I have of the 3 pics. These ripples are 1-2 inches deep and they run almost the entire length of the plane on both sides. The fuse windows weren't level anymore when you stood back and looked at them. I heard it torqued so bad that the interior galley drawers and cabinets were jammed and wouldn't open. Don't know if thats true.



Different angle:




You can see the area just above the wing roots, they are rippled from leading edge to trailing edge. I can tell you, where the wings mate to the fuse, its like ripple city and the rivets/screws looked like they were riding on waves. And inbetween each window, the same ripples as the other side.



STORY. This is what I was told by the people that were there when the plane rolled in. They are employees of the FBO and know the owner and everyone involved.

It came from Mexico back to FXE, the captain that flew it back was a licensed Mexican pilot, no FAA licenses or ratings. Captain was hired as a contract pilot just for this trip. The co-pilot was from here and he was also just used as a contract pilot to get the plane back here.
When they got back to FXE where the owner was waiting, of course they flipped out as the plane rolled into parking. The captain or the co-pilot had no idea YET of the damage that was caused. When asked, "what the F$CK happened?" He apparently at some point said he made a hard landing. YET, the tires and gear were perfect. The FAA and insurance company had questioned them on what happened and they stuck to that story for 9 days. Finally, the co-pilot talked (good for him BTW). He said the Mexican guy wanted to snap roll it...not aileron roll it....SNAP ROLL it like a Pitts. Fuel wing fuel too, moron. Supposedly it was done 3-4 times. By this time, when the co-pilot talked, the captain had gone back to Mexico. Not sure yet what the FAA is going to do with the co-pilot though. He'll probably get a pass, he was just flying with a scumbag captain. He should have smacked him in the mouth and took the controls. But, thats just me.

Its being fixed I guess and returning to service. I heard it was very low-time and only a few years old. Not sure on that. I certainly wouldn't fly it after seeingwhat I saw, no way.

Maybe someone with more accurate or detailed info can chime in.
 

BEfly

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Couldn't find a contract pilot from the U.S.? Interesting. I'd be surprised if the FO get out of this without a scratch.
 

Fly91

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Couldn't find a contract pilot from the U.S.? Interesting. I'd be surprised if the FO get out of this without a scratch.

I'll be asking one of the managers of the FBO tomorrow about it, maybe I'll get some new info.
 

SpeedRestricted

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wow... with the number of qualified unemployed pilots looking for work I don't see how the airplane owner couldn't find a captain with at least an FAA license to fly it back. I have no idea, but I'm betting the owner was being cheap, the mexico pilot was cheaper, and he only had to pay for a one way ticket. Cutting corners to save a few bucks cost him alot more in the end.
 

ksu_aviator

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What is with people lately? It just seems everyone thinks a normal category airplane is just as strong as an acrobatic.
 

Fly91

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New pictures and a story update.


Spoke with the mechanics working on it today. Still actually not sure if it will fly again, they are still tearing into it. Found out yesterday that the right wing is history, bent beyond repair. You can actually see it up close, where the aluminum is actually stretched and seperating at some points.

***I in no way support people who roll corporate jets, but lets be honest, it happens to 100's of planes, every day of the year, all around the world and we don't ever see this type of damage. I've never once seen a complete airframe destroyed. If any of you think for a second that you're flying coporate jets that have not been rolled, unless you know its brand new and only you have flown it since new.......you're fooling yourselves. If you fly a Leajet that is more than 5-10 years old, its most likely been rolled. There are many tell tale signs that should be looked for on every pre-flight to not only detect structural damage/fatigue through stress, or through NEGLECTFUL flying practices. But if there's no stress, there's no visible signs. One Learjet I did see at TEB years ago, had ripples the entire length of the tops of both wings. A few BLE's also popped off and were gone. They pulled too many positive G's pulling out of a dive after doing a friggin botched wing-over. The skin gets crimped together because it has nowhere to go, so it wrinkles up. Thats the only corporate jet I've ever seen have damage from an aerobatic manuever.

STORY UPDATE:
They did roll it 4 times. What caused all the damage was when on the last two rolls, the pilot got scared and cranked the yoke back the other way to stop the roll and go back to upright. He got about halfway around and got scared and jerked it back real hard, thats what twisted everything, instead of continuing the roll in the original direction. Whats funny is, he got scared on roll #3, then tried again and got scared again, so it was hardcore twisted two times..... lol



This wing is trashed and the wing root is twisted.



Hard to see here in the pic, but its a very obvious wrinkle in the nose cone, right side. They haven't gotten to that part of the frane yet.







Left side was the worst. Windows may never be perfectly even.



The bottom of the tail cone area had a bend in it and some wrinkles. Empanage may be bent inside, still checking.



Engines were ok, engine pylons were ok, but a couple mounts are being replaced because of stress.

They haven;'t even checked the airframe around the windscreens yet, that could be the deal breaker.



 
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ackattacker

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hah!
I would think this would constitute a reportable accident with associated NTSB involvement. And the pilot, Mexican or not, subject to scrutiny. Mexico has their version of the FAA.
 

Sandhawk

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Shouldn't this be in the Aerobatics Forum ???

;)

Thanks for posting this Fly91 !!

:beer:
 

Fly91

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I would think this would constitute a reportable accident with associated NTSB involvement. And the pilot, Mexican or not, subject to scrutiny. Mexico has their version of the FAA.

This is neither an accident or an incident. NTSB only investigates accidents and they have no authority to discipline a pilot.

The FAA was called and it was reported. The American, FAA licensed co-pilot, is being investigated. He'll probably get a pass because he finally gave up the captain and told the truth. But really, what grounds would they have for violating the co-pilot, he was just sitting there, the captain made the choice to roll it. Not alot of co-pilots have the balls to tell captains that they ARE NOT going to do something. They don't realize that they are, in a way, the final authority on alot of flight and non-flight operations. If they say they don't like something or aren't comfortable with something, no matter what the captain says, its not going to happen. But this co-pilot obviously is one of the co-pilots who just does whatever a captain says, kind of stupid if you ask me. The leading cause of death of co-pilots...is captains. lol
 

MauleSkinner

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This is neither an accident or an incident. NTSB only investigates accidents and they have no authority to discipline a pilot.
Sounds like the definition of an accident to me...
§ 830.2 Definitions.
As used in this part the following
words or phrases are defined as follows:
Aircraft accident means an occurrence
associated with the operation of an aircraft
which takes place between the
time any person boards the aircraft
with the intention of flight and all
such persons have disembarked, and in
which any person suffers death or serious
injury, or in which the aircraft receives
substantial damage.
 

d.fitz

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Based on the second part of the story - that sounds like stress from stopping and reversing the aileron roll abruptly and torquing the fuselage. That makes sense!

I would highly doubt the tail would stay attached had they actually done a snap roll (nearly full back stick and full rudder), unless they did it at near stall speed. If they did do a snap roll, I would also think the recovery would be difficult (at best). It would seem that such an abrupt change to the inlet flow would also flame out both engines...

Why not just go fly an extra 300?
 

Fly91

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Sounds like the definition of an accident to me...

That pertains to an actual aircraft accident (ie: running off the end of a runway, collision, controlled or uncontrolled flight into terrain etc.)

The NTSB doesn't investigate neglect to an aircraft. They investigate accidents in an attempt to never see that same accident repeated. The only thing thay could do here is tell the pilot not to do it again.
At least I've never heard of the NTSB investigating something like this. Plus, the NTSB doesn't investigate a Part 91 trip on a corporate jet where no passengers were involved, IIRC.
 
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Fly91

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Based on the second part of the story - that sounds like stress from stopping and reversing the aileron roll abruptly and torquing the fuselage. That makes sense!

I would highly doubt the tail would stay attached had they actually done a snap roll (nearly full back stick and full rudder),

I think the co-pilot meant he was really pinning the yoke to one side, abruptly. I don't think he was doing a snap-roll as in proper technique that you would do in an aerobatic plane.

He was clear that he didn't do a nice smooth, slightly pitched up attitude entry to a mellow aileron roll, like Bob Hoover does in non-aerobatic rated passenger planes. He said he was very aggressive and just whipped it around hard.

But yes, the two times he whipped it back the other way is what twisted everything.
 
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Correcting

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***I in no way support people who roll corporate jets, but lets be honest, it happens to 100's of planes, every day of the year, all around the world and we don't ever see this type of damage. I've never once seen a complete airframe destroyed. If any of you think for a second that you're flying coporate jets that have not been rolled, unless you know its brand new and only you have flown it since new.......you're fooling yourselves....

Say what? How do you figure? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty confident that none of the planes at NJA have been rolled. I'd bet the same goes for our competitors as well.
 

G21Agoose

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.
That pertains to an actual aircraft accident (ie: running off the end of a runway, collision, controlled or uncontrolled flight into terrain etc.)

The NTSB doesn't investigate neglect to an aircraft. They investigate accidents in an attempt to never see that same accident repeated. The only thing thay could do here is tell the pilot not to do it again.
At least I've never heard of the NTSB investigating something like this. Plus, the NTSB doesn't investigate a Part 91 trip on a corporate jet where no passengers were involved, IIRC.

I am sorry but that's rubbish- the Mexican equivalent is the investigating authority but the NTSB would have investigated had it been under their authority.

DFW08WA091
On March 28, 2008, at 0808 central standard time N167DD, a British Aerospace BAE 125 model 800A was substantially damaged while landing on runway 02 at Aeropuerta de Norte, near Monterrey, Mexico. After landing the crew taxied the airplane to the hanger and did not report the occurrence. Maintenance personnel noticed substantial damage to the fuselage and wings while performing routine maintenance.

The passenger airplane, serial number 258068, is owned by Aircraft Guaranty Holdings and Trust LLC Trustee in Houston, Texas. The flight initiated in Toluca, Mexico with Monterrey, Mexico as the intended destination. None of crew and passengers were injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight.

The investigation is under the jurisdiction and control of the Government of the Republic of Mexico. Any further information may be obtained from:

Secretaria de Comunicaciones y Trasportes
Direccion General de Aeronautica Civil (DGAC)
Providencia 807, Cuarto Piso
Colonia del Valle, Codigo Postal 03100
Mexico, D.F.
 

Rick1128

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This is neither an accident or an incident. NTSB only investigates accidents and they have no authority to discipline a pilot.

The FAA was called and it was reported. The American, FAA licensed co-pilot, is being investigated. He'll probably get a pass because he finally gave up the captain and told the truth. But really, what grounds would they have for violating the co-pilot, he was just sitting there, the captain made the choice to roll it. Not alot of co-pilots have the balls to tell captains that they ARE NOT going to do something. They don't realize that they are, in a way, the final authority on alot of flight and non-flight operations. If they say they don't like something or aren't comfortable with something, no matter what the captain says, its not going to happen. But this co-pilot obviously is one of the co-pilots who just does whatever a captain says, kind of stupid if you ask me. The leading cause of death of co-pilots...is captains. lol

From what I have seen they will violate both of them. It is a crew aircraft. The Captain needed an FAA certificate to fly the aircraft in US airspace so they can get him through that. If he didn't have an FAA certificate, they could start action against the C/P and the owner for that also.
 

Hung Start

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I am absolutely amazed the insurance company has not written this off, fast!
That is one liability trail that is never going away. That airframe is going to have problems forever, and God forbid it has a catastrophic failure in the coming years. For any reason.
Not to mention the resale value has dropped to nothing. No intelligent buyer would ever consider it.

Good luck, someone is going to need it.

Hung
 
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