Hawker 800XP....snap rolled 3-4 times

[ProFracPilot]

Say what? How do you figure? Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty confident that none of the planes at NJA have been rolled. I'd bet the same goes for our competitors as well.

Perhaps things have changed at Cessna, but back in the day airplanes being rolled during production flight test (not experimental) was pretty "normal". Citations, Conquests, 300-400 series. Didn't matter. They all were rolled.

 

[Fly91]

Wow. WTF is it with FXE and idiots like this?

I'd be surprised if the FAA gives the f/o a pass. He's a required crew member that shares responsibility for the flight. They'll come down harder on the PIC for sure, but as with the airnet lear roll, the f/o will face the consequences of just sitting there letting the world roll by.

I know the captain, name is Brian, co-pilot was Jess, she is the girlfriend of the chief pilot there. THEY ROLLED IT 3 TIMES. They admitted to that.

She, the co-pilot, being the girlfriend of the chief pilot......damn well knew better than to do that. She will most likely get violated. Plus, she lawyered up instead of telling the FAA what happened, the FAA does not like when pilots lawyer up. She is finished for sure. But Brian will also most likely get revoked.


Like I said earlier, co-pilots for the most part are wussies and won't tell a captain that if he does something stupid on purpose that they will take the plane from them. And if that happened, there would be a struggle and an argument in the cockpit. There's other ways to get control of the plane.

Give you an example of what I did once when a captain was going to do something to us one day. In short, bad weather, got in line and were #14 for landing because all the ailiners from MIA and FLL had to come to PBI because those two airports were closed. After trying the VOR approach into Boca and going missed, then getting vectored all over carnation because of crazy traffic flow, we were very low on fuel in our Lear 25. This moron captain was going to get in line, #14 for landing. I said there's no way we can go 30 miles in the Atlantic, then 30 miles back, with the fuel we had and hope we make it down on the first try. Planes were going missed approach into PBI because of the weather. He disagreed, I said NO, he disagreed again and I said NO, he disagreed one last time. I picked up the mic and told tower that we were "minimum fuel" and had to land immediately. That was better than wrestling the plane from him with passengers watching in crappy weather. The dickhead captain had no choice but to cut in line and land immediately. There's more than one way to take control of the aircraft when the captain makes a stupid decision. The co-pilot becomes the captain at that point, as far as I'm concerned.

So, the co-pilot on the Hawker could have picked up the mic and reported what the captain was going to do to ATC. He would have gotten a guaranteed pass if he did that.

 

[AC560]

I do however think most pilots will agree with you - a properly executed roll will not result in any damage. Here's an example of that:

Hoover flies an experimental with inverted oil systems among other modifications. It is probably fair to say a aileron roll won't hurt the airframe if done properly. I think a fair argument can be made that rolling/looping aircraft not intended for acrobatics can hurt things attached to the airframe though.

 

[Fly91]

Did anyone else see the post in this thread by G21Agoose? This a/c was damaged in an accident 1 year ago in Mexico from a hard landing.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1798620&postcount=18

Fly91, it sounds like somebody's feeding you a line of BS about this plane. Unless it was involved in a hard landing AND had an A-hole flight crew ferry it over and roll it. That'd be one unlucky plane.

As I said on page one, if anyone else has other info, lets hear it. This is what I'm being told by the mechanics, line guys, the FBO manager who's in charge of fixing the plane for the owner and pilots who know the co-pilot.

And the hard landing BS, thats what the captain said he did to cover up what he really did. The co-pilot admitted the rolls. And a hard landing cannot twist an entire plane all in the same direction around the entire fuse. The gear was perfect, the tires were fine. There was no hard landing.

So..........

 

[Fly91]

Fly91, cool pictures, but you are seriously defensive of rolls.

I'm just stating a fact, any plane can be rolled and absolutely nothing will get damaged, if done properly. Thats all. We all saw the Boeing 707 do a nice roll, it was fine. Bob Hoover for decades has been doing it. And again, hundreds of corporate jets are rolled every day, world wide. Just reality. Its just that most people who do it don;'t openly talk about it.

 

[Fly91]

Hoover flies an experimental with inverted oil systems among other modifications. It is probably fair to say a aileron roll won't hurt the airframe if done properly. I think a fair argument can be made that rolling/looping aircraft not intended for acrobatics can hurt things attached to the airframe though.

A loop is an entirely different animal than an aileron roll. A loop can get ugly real quick and have massive G loading. Aileron rolls are totally stress free.

 

[Fly91]

Fly91, I have considerable aerobatic experience and do not enjoy you calling me an idiot about such a topic.

I guess all I have to say is, I have seen photos of a Hawker 800XP that WAS ROLLED and nearly totaled. Want to see the photos? check out the begining of this thread.

Do you think that the pilot trashed this plane on purpose?

I don't have considerable time, about 300 hours in Pitts, Extras and about 20 hours in the T-37 Tweet and T-38 Talon, combined.

And yes, that Hawker was damaged from rolling it the way he rolled it. And from twisting it back the other way halfway around. Thats what did the damage.

You of all people, having aerobatic time, should know that an aileron roll is basically stress free.

sorry about the idiot thing.

 

[AC560]

A loop is an entirely different animal than an aileron roll. A loop can get ugly real quick and have massive G loading. Aileron rolls are totally stress free.

Thanks for the acrobatic lesson. Try reading my post again.

 

[J3 Guy]

Luv your quip about hundreds of corporate jets being rolled everyday.
I would hope we are more professional than that, you must be flying with the wrong types of pilots.
If you have a hang up with rolls I would suggest Microsoft Flight sim, or radio control models.

J3

 

[siucavflight]

Hundreds of corporate jets are rolled every day? Get real.