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DirkkDiggler

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2004
Posts
422
Sorry, I had to steal that title from Stuart Scott. I have a question for all you folks out there who complain so much about this industry. If it's that bad, why don't you get a different job. Now I have a theory about this but I want to see what your responses are before I let you know what it is. (P.S. I'm not talking about the folks who complain every now and then. I'm talking about the folks who post messages telling others not to get started in their flying careers because it sucks. As well as the people who say that this industry is worthless and there are much better jobs out there. If that's really what you think then you are a fool not to pursue those other opportunities.) Let me here what your response is.
 
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I'm talking about the folks who post messages telling others not to get started in their flying careers because it sucks. As well as the people who say that this industry is worthless and there are much better jobs out there. If that's really what you think then you are a fool not to pursue those other opportunities.) Let me here what your response is.
The truth of the matter is that most all other entry level jobs outside of aviation "pay" more than "peanuts" and people should be made aware of that fact, bottom line. I think people who know this industry, seen the downward slide which continues, etc, etc, are merely giving advice to those who think it is all fun and games. I hope these posters continue to be as outspoken as ever and educate the people considering aviation as a career. I am one who will actually applaud their comments and "factual data and information" that they bring to this board.

This has little if anything to do with getting out of this industry and everything to do with spreading the word around with regards to what one can expect should they choose to pursue a career in this industry as a pilot.

You can justify your opinion until hell freezes over but it has little or no bearing on what is happening in reality.

go to med school and be able to actually support a family and have a great QOL.

I can tell you most I know (including myself) would never have gotten involved in this "game"/"industry" if they could re-write history and do it all again given what they know now. This industry will never ever be what is once was, sad but it is a fact.

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ps>> ExpressJet lowered their mins to 600 and 100..

Just when one thought this could not get any more comical.:rolleyes:

Common sense would also illustrate that the older one get's, the less opportunity and chance they have to catch up on lost time and pursue another career option, quite simple and it is not brain surgery my friend.

You will always have folks willing to accept $17, 000/YEAR and be based in EWR just to fly that shiny new RJ.
 
It is all about what you love and how much you are willing to sacrafice for it. People don't go to med school or law school etc... for the $, cause their no $ until about 5-10 years after your clinicals are over and then whatever $ you make goes to your 100+ thousand dollar loan for the school.

I fly cause I enjoy it and yeah just like any job, things suck sometimes really bad, but at the end of day I do have the single greatest job out their. I am a optimist though.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong but expressing my .2$

See yah

Justino
 
Amen!

I also choose to fly because even on my worst day flying, it's still better then the best day I ever had in an office.
 
DirkkDiggler said:
Sorry, I had to steal that title from Stuart Scott. I have a question for all you folks out there who complain so much about this industry. If it's that bad, why don't you get a different job. Now I have a theory about this but I want to see what your responses are before I let you know what it is. (P.S. I'm not talking about the folks who complain every now and then. I'm talking about the folks who post messages telling others not to get started in their flying careers because it sucks. As well as the people who say that this industry is worthless and there are much better jobs out there. If that's really what you think then you are a fool not to pursue those other opportunities.) Let me here what your response is.
Most complaining comes when someone asks about getting into aviation as a career.

Myself and others just give our opinions, thats what these folks are looking for. Dont post a question if you dont want responses.

You are only reading some, you will also find the folks who think its just peachy to fly that RJ around for 17K....but living with Mom gets old and Mastercards usually have limits.....when its reached you may hear thier complaining too. Check the posts who rave about the RJ jobs (above) they are 1100, 1300hr pilots. My guess is also no wife, no kids, no house payments, etc....its all fun...but what's gonna happen in 10 yrs? I hope they get good jobs to support a normal life.

Most say that yes, flying is fun, the time off is wonderful...but the industry is not what it once was - and may never be again. I do like my job, I am lucky to have a decent flying job..but I wouldn't do it again if I was able to go back.

Smart folks should persue other careers to make real money and fly as a hobby.

As you might be able to tell -- I strongly disagree with the saying that "money does not buy happiness"........that is bull$hit spewed by poor people.
 
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As you might be able to tell -- I strongly disagree with the saying that "money does not buy happiness"........that is bull$hit spewed by poor people.

That rockS! I have not heard that before, the poor people thing!

:)

C yah
 
Everytime i lost money i never found myself happier...that much i know.
 
I worked a "real" job for 17 years before I had a chance to go into aviation. My wife and kid supported me, and we made do with little for a few years. And yes, we were "macaroni and cheese" poor for a few years, as I didn't have money saved up to live on. Yes the credit dards were maxed out, and sometimes it was a strain. It was also by far the best decision that I have ever made. There isn't enough space on this boards server to list all the things I love about what I do. Yeah, sometimes it's a pain in the a$$, and there are a lot of times that I complain about management, rampers, being the brunt of schedulings incompetence, having the contract violated, etc, but when it's all said and done, I hit my knees every night and thank whoever's in charge for allowing me to be so lucky...

atrdriver
 
Basically you have all proven my theory. Despite how sh!tty you think the job is, you love flying and don't quit because you know that you won't enjoy another job as much. If this isn't true then you would have quit long ago. And for all of you who are claiming to just be informing newcomers about the industry, do that. However, list facts and not opinions. If you think this industry sucks, and you wouldn't do it again, that is your opinion. There are plenty others out there who disagree with you. It would be a shame to discourage someone who is really excited about becoming a pilot because your experience jaded you so much. Let them know the facts and they can make an informed decision of their own.
 
350DRIVER said:
I can tell you most I know (including myself) would never have gotten involved in this "game"/"industry" if they could re-write history and do it all again given what they know now. This industry will never ever be what is once was, sad but it is a fact.
I darn sure fall into that catagory.

Dirk,

I won't speak for anyone but myself. I cannot just quit, because flying is all I have ever done. I'm an old guy by regional standards. Compliments of my pi$$-ant wages, I cannot afford to go to a trade school, or go back to college and get another degree in something that will alow me to make more money. My parents are dirt farmers, so that is not an option either. I have to concentrate on saving for retirement now. I guess you could say that I'm stuck in the profession that I chose.

If I HAD the resources to get out of this profession and get a decent paying job with a good quality of life, I'd be out of here in a second. Yes, I like to fly. I'd just go back to doing it on the weekends, like back when I enjoyed it. I freaking hate it now. It has become an actual job since 9-11. I wish it were still fun. For me, it is not. I'm simply here because I need to support my family. I cannot do this and start over somewhere else, unless I win the lottery.
 
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You can't take it with you when you die, might as well have fun while it lasts...Money is great and yes I wish I had lots more of it. But when I'm in St. Thomas twice a year and Florida whenever I want, or anywhere else, And my best friends family goes on vacation once a year but makes good money owning their own businesses, I'd much rather have my life..

Its like Harrison Ford says..He'd fly for a living if he didn't have a better gig to make money..Maybe I'll give him a call, get into the movies.
 
AviatorTx

Could you still fly corporate, they pay more don't they? I am not trying to be an a$$ here, I am new to the industry. From what I have seen corporate guys make more $ but have on call status, kinda like being TDY'ed every week!

Just a though 4 u

Justino
 
AviatorTx

Could you still fly corporate, they pay more don't they? I am not trying to be an a$$ here, I am new to the industry. From what I have seen corporate guys make more $ but have on call status, kinda like being TDY'ed every week!

Just a thought 4 u

Justino
 
I think it's interesting that most career changers say they'd never look back to their former lives in the 9-5 workforce, whereas those who have only flown for a career and never done anything else are the ones saying to get out and do something else for "more money."
 
Justino said:
AviatorTx

Could you still fly corporate, they pay more don't they? I am not trying to be an a$$ here, I am new to the industry. From what I have seen corporate guys make more $ but have on call status, kinda like being TDY'ed every week! Just a though 4 u Justino
Honestly, "most" corporate gigs suck. The top ten percent is where all the pay and bennies are at. I could go back to my previous corporate gig tomorrow. IF, our new contract is signed, it would still be a pay cut, and less days off. Actually, a big pay cut, and a lot less days off.

I have some feelers out there... If a coveted Gulfstream CA postition comes open that I can actually get hired at, I'd split in a second. So far, most of the "big" corporate folks (that can pay) I have talked to, do not seem to like us prima-donna airline pilots though. Fractionals won't cut the mustard as far as pay and work rules, and I'd sell my kids and go live in a grass hut somewhere before I'd ever go back to a part 135 charter outfit. Regional flying sucks, but at least I do not "have" to clean airplanes, load bags, and kiss the passengers butts. Thats the stuff I do not miss about corporate.

"Most" corporate places do not pay more than what I will make as a 7 year CA when our new contract is signed. Then there is the whole permanent reserve issue. The deal killer would be having to start at the bottom somewhere else, and going to first year pay. I would take the hit for this to get hired on with a real major, such as the legacy carriers and the big freight guys, but that does not like like it's going to happen soon. I have aps in with UPS Fed-X ans SWA. So far... No offers.

Like I said, had I to do all over again, I would have gotten into law school.

I'm not here now because I like to fly. That WAS true before 9-11. I'm simply here now because I need what little money I can pull in with my seniority.
 
Smart folks should persue other careers to make real money and fly as a hobby.
I could not have said it any better myself, well put... It is the "young" guys that are so one-sided that they neglect to look at the entire picture and in return they focus only on one or two things. I guess we are all young and naive at one point in our lives.

AviatorTx

Could you still fly corporate, they pay more don't they? I am not trying to be an a$$ here, I am new to the industry. From what I have seen corporate guys make more $ but have on call status, kinda like being TDY'ed every week!

Just a thought 4 u

Justino


Justino,

Don't take this personally but I would think that at 5000 hours + and two types later he is somewhat well versed in knowing what he can/cannot do. Things are sometimes easier said than done. Report back to us in a few years. (no sarcasm intended)

Get a real job, make good money, be able to live and lead the good life, and fly for fun. . The problem is that you have "kids" that are willing to fly for "peanuts" so QOL will always be p!ss poor, sad but true.


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350DRIVER said:
I could not have said it any better myself, well put... It is the "young" guys that are so one-sided that they neglect to look at the entire picture and in return they focus only on one or two things. I guess we are all young and naive at one point in our lives.
Well, I'm not young, at 39. Like I said, 17 years working a "real" job...Flying is all I have ever wanted to do, and I am thankful that I am able to do it. I agree that most who really hate the job have never done anything else. For those who changed careers midlife, there appears to be a lot more contentment with the flying job. Sure I'd like to make more money, and sure I'd like to have 18 days off a month, but then again, I knew what I was getting into, and I wouldn't change my decision for anything...

atrdriver
 
It doesn't matter why you're still flying. If you're too old to get out and you have resigned yourselves to "suffering" in this business for the rest of your working lives, don't you think your life would be more enjoyable if you didn't complain about it so much. If you're stuck with it then you may as well enjoy it as much as you can or at least find other things to do in your free time which will enable you to suffer silently while you're at work. Nobody owes you anything and it's too bad you feel stuck in a job you hate. But get over it. Nobody likes a whiner!
 
350DRIVER said:
I could not have said it any better myself, well put... It is the "young" guys that are so one-sided that they neglect to look at the entire picture and in return they focus only on one or two things. I guess we are all young and naive at one point in our lives.
Just to be argumentative [/sarcasm]... it's simply a question of how much you are willing to gamble. This career is like Vegas: You can put a lot down for the possibility of a great reward, or you can take your chips and go home to the safety of another job which has better stability and less reward. I have thought many times about pursuing my father's career in federal law enforcement. He retired after 34 years of service making just over $100,000 a year. He had great government benefits, and a solid pension plan. Definitely desireable. However, after seeing how hard he worked for that money, and the life associated with that job, I would rather take the aviation gamble.

The aviation gamble for me is the opportunity to have very decent pay and work rules/days off/benefits for doing my hobby as my job. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the opportunities this career is providing me that I otherwise would not have if I had selected another path. If I do not attain my goals, I won't blame the system... I'll blame myself for taking the gamble. I looked at the big picture and made a decision.

But, even though it's a gamble, it doesn't mean we can't have some control of the system. Our careers should not be determined by a white collar bean counter at the main office. But too many of us allow them to dictate our lives.

You may say I'm young and naive to think that a major airline career with a decent paycheck and plenty of days off is attainable. I say you're right. There is a benefit to being young... it's the ability to not let life beat you down and let anyone think you can't achieve your goals.

I guess I'm also young enough to back out of this silly career, go back to school, and become a surgeon or something. But that just doesn't sound like much fun. I wouldn't mind going back to college... but it wouldn't be to study!
 
FlyChicaga said:
Just to be argumentative [/sarcasm]... it's simply a question of how much you are willing to gamble. This career is like Vegas: You can put a lot down for the possibility of a great reward, or you can take your chips and go home to the safety of another job which has better stability and less reward. I have thought many times about pursuing my father's career in federal law enforcement. He retired after 34 years of service making just over $100,000 a year. He had great government benefits, and a solid pension plan. Definitely desireable. However, after seeing how hard he worked for that money, and the life associated with that job, I would rather take the aviation gamble.

The aviation gamble for me is the opportunity to have very decent pay and work rules/days off/benefits for doing my hobby as my job. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the opportunities this career is providing me that I otherwise would not have if I had selected another path. If I do not attain my goals, I won't blame the system... I'll blame myself for taking the gamble. I looked at the big picture and made a decision.

But, even though it's a gamble, it doesn't mean we can't have some control of the system. Our careers should not be determined by a white collar bean counter at the main office. But too many of us allow them to dictate our lives.

You may say I'm young and naive to think that a major airline career with a decent paycheck and plenty of days off is attainable. I say you're right. There is a benefit to being young... it's the ability to not let life beat you down and let anyone think you can't achieve your goals.

I guess I'm also young enough to back out of this silly career, go back to school, and become a surgeon or something. But that just doesn't sound like much fun. I wouldn't mind going back to college... but it wouldn't be to study!
Chi,

I wish you the best of luck over there, the gamble that you took was one that I was not willing to take under any circumstances and believe me when I tell you that I have taken many chances at the tables at the Mandalay and Bellagio and would take those risks and odds any day of the week versus ever stepping foot back into this profession if I could go back and re-write history. I was first offered a 1900 ground instructor position with your present and then a first officer position some time later when the "one and only" Mr. John Dresser left stage left but the pay, qol, etc, did not excite me one bit so I simply said "thanks but no thanks". I am a tad surprised you left C8 for EJ, but whatever floats your boat, it is all about a number and it seemed like you were well on your way and getting yourself established there but that is none of my business.

I just hope the people who have seen the good, the bad, the ugly, continue to post to show some of these folks what they can expect should they want to pursue a career in this business.


This industry and career will never ever be what it once was.

It comes down to one thing and one thing only, personal preference. If one is happy making $17,000 a year then more power to them and all I can say is "good luck". A good friend of mine is a 4 year f-o- with ExpressJet and when he told me the numbers on his W2 it was a tad comical but also a tad sad since he has 2 kids and a wife.

beware folks before you decide to step into this career.

I would urge all of you to speak to Draganass who has been in this game for a long time and who is also a major airline pilot. He will tell you the same thing...

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DirkkDiggler said:
It doesn't matter why you're still flying. If you're too old to get out and you have resigned yourselves to "suffering" in this business for the rest of your working lives, don't you think your life would be more enjoyable if you didn't complain about it so much. If you're stuck with it then you may as well enjoy it as much as you can or at least find other things to do in your free time which will enable you to suffer silently while you're at work. Nobody owes you anything and it's too bad you feel stuck in a job you hate. But get over it. Nobody likes a whiner!
It has little if anything to do with complaining and everything to do with the "reality" of this industry, which you seem to not want to figure into the equation. I love your optimistic opinions, ideas, and postings but the bottom line is that this industry is what it is, nothing more and nothing less. You nor I will be able to change that. Open your eyes and take a look around at this industry present day and be a little more open minded. When did I ever say I was "owed" anything?.

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DirkkDiggler said:
Basically you have all proven my theory. Despite how sh!tty you think the job is, you love flying and don't quit because you know that you won't enjoy another job as much. If this isn't true then you would have quit long ago. And for all of you who are claiming to just be informing newcomers about the industry, do that. However, list facts and not opinions. If you think this industry sucks, and you wouldn't do it again, that is your opinion. There are plenty others out there who disagree with you. It would be a shame to discourage someone who is really excited about becoming a pilot because your experience jaded you so much. Let them know the facts and they can make an informed decision of their own.
If someone really lets an internet message board discourage them from their dreams --

then they are a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**in moron and too sensitive to make it past year one in the aviation industry anyways.



Your "theory" is right? Everyone just biatches and nobody leaves the industry?
Is it that easy just to switch careers?
sure....just hop out there and find another 6 figure salary just like that..

I dont think you get the point...by the time you get a little burned out on flying you are in it too far. Again, it IS a good job, but there are many better...by better I mean in terms of stability and pay - (2 things that become important when you grow up)

Once your woody from flying a jet sags and your mom is no longer impressed when you come home in your poly dork suit -- reality starts to set in.

If you are lucky (I am) you may find one of the FEW decent flying jobs and make enough to support a middle class lifestyle and give yourself plenty of time ot persue hobbies....cheap hobbies....because that all you are going to be able to afford-- if you are lucky that is.

And please dont think I am just a grouchy old burned out pilot....Im not TOO old yet.....I graduated high school in the 90's.
 
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Ahhh Yes,


That is why I am getting my Masters of Science after all. Just in case the $hit hits the fan for me I have another option. A way out if you may is important no matter what endeavor you elect. True I am young, but naive, umm thats a bit far for me. I have done the 135 flying, CFI gigs and AF stuff. I am only 26 but well versed in what the future holds. 17K yes I am aware, no more 200K to sit on my A$$ at UAL, well thats 4 sure. I do know that flying a desk sucks, I have worked in National Security for awhile, can't comment to what I did but most people would say "wow thats cool you must have so much fun" Well it all boils down to a 8-10 job dealing with small incidentals that make up a big picture which will never be complete. That is why I am flying, cause it is fun, dynamic, and a good group of people like yourselves to converse with. I would rather make less flying then make more in an office where I can't talk about what I do with anyone.

:)

C yah
 
If I were to do it all over again, I would start at UPS at 22 yrs old throwing boxes and washing trucks and waiting for a drivers slot to open up. I would fly for fun on the side. Heck, I'm 32 yrs old and still thinking about doing this!! I run into these drivers alot and most seem happy. I know they make alot more than pilots do!! Does anyone know fedex or UPS drivers? Are they happy? It's just my timing has sucked in this industry. I'm stuck at a fractional going on year 5 in the right seat with still no upgrade in sight!!
 
350, Did you feel like this in the 90's when things were going great? This is a cyclical industry, and while things are bad right now, they will get better. There are too many Americans who expect and want to fly for the industry to go away. I agree that there isn't much stability right now, but no one was saying that when the times were good...

As for job security, while we don't have a lot of it, go ask someone who has been "downsized" how they felt about their job security. Like everything else, cycles come and go, and where we are in the cycle determines to a large extent how people feel about their jobs, lives, etc. As for me, I have had a non aviation career, as well as this one...I would never go back by choice.

atrdriver
 
FlyChicaga said:
I think it's interesting that most career changers say they'd never look back to their former lives in the 9-5 workforce, whereas those who have only flown for a career and never done anything else are the ones saying to get out and do something else for "more money."
I strongly agree with this statement as I am/was a career changer. Usually the more vocal ones are the ones that have never seen a 9-5 type job. All they see is greener grass on the other side of the fence.
 
I'm sure a lot of people stick with aviation because of the thousands upon thousands of dollars they spent to get their ratings in the first place.
 
350DRIVER said:
I can tell you most I know (including myself) would never have gotten involved in this "game"/"industry" if they could re-write history and do it all again given what they know now.
I wouldn't change a thing.
 

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