Has USAPA Contacted You?

[Occam's Razor]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

No it's not. That is NOT the "bottom line". That is an internal issue that is causing friction between pilot groups.

I'm referring to something bigger than that.

Your new union was brought aboard because it "wasn't ALPA!". I read the stuff. I watched the campaign. USAPA was "different" than ALPA...and the Nicolau Award was the sand in the oyster that led to the USAPA "pearl".

I understand that. I don't think YOU do.

I don't think you understand that USAPA and ALPA are identical on the touchstone issue: Binding Arbitration.

Let me repost my questions:

I suggested that the leadership of USAPA just might find themselves in a merger, where they end up in binding arbitration. Will they expect the other pilot group to abide by the arbitrator's ruling? Will they commit to abide by the ruling?

I don't think you'll answer the questions because I think you're smart enough to recognize the paradox.

You are going to expect other unions and pilot groups to do something you are unwilling to do.

That's why USAPA sucks...Period.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

While AAA was running away to the east coast and trying to hide in their hubs and then trying to stave off the beast that is SWA by selling BWI,

Selling???? You think that AAA "sold" something to SWA?

I don't know where you have been, but in this deregulated environment, it's all about competition.

At BWI, SWA saw a need...so they jumped on it. Remember when SWA started at BWI in 1993, they only flew to 2 destinations...seems nobody wanted to compete with SWA on routes to those 2 destinations...sooooo, SWA added more.

However, one really can't blame the AAA pilots for what happened at BWI....they had a delusional management team in place at the time...and an anti-competitive business plan in place.

And as you have seen in this industry, Pilots don't take part in the strategic planning....

...unless you guys do at your airline? Do you?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

No its not. Both guys were on the same spot on their respective seniority lists. The bottom !! If the 89 east hire is still on the bottom of his original senority list after all this time without taking the initiativitive to look for employment elsewhere,why should "Save Dave"' be penalized ? Both guys held low senority positions prior to and after the merger.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

....and it was AAA's best(only) option to continue operating. Wow.

In all seriousness, these little jabs can go back and forth forever. A jab back at me and Grog is easy, a no brainer. Why don't you address Occam and Bring up the Bird? What? No answer for that eh? Thats ok, there isn't one, they gotcha.

Usapa exposed, brought to you by BUTB and Occam.

Beautifully executed, I might add.



PHXFLYR

 

[johnnyb]

No its not. Both guys were on the same spot on their respective seniority lists. The bottom !! If the 89 east hire is still on the bottom of his original senority list after all this time without taking the initiativitive to look for employment elsewhere,why should "Save Dave"' be penalized ? Both guys held low senority positions prior to and after the merger.


PHXFLYR

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

 

[becket]

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

If the merger happens, nobody is going to "ask" anybody else for anything. It will go to binding arbitration. The two lists that will get merged are UAL and the Nic award. That's it. those are the only two legally binding seniority lists in existence.

 

[get2flyin]

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

I see many of you are still struggling with the concept of relative seniority. Dave will be positioned in a NEW merger seniority list exactly were his relative position among ACTIVE (*that means not furloughed or flying for a Jets for Jobs Career) pilots on the two existing seniority lists.

Come on guys, it's so simple! It's ALL ball bearings these days.

 

[johnnyb]

I see many of you are still struggling with the concept of relative seniority. Dave will be positioned in a NEW merger seniority list exactly were his relative position among ACTIVE (*that means not furloughed or flying for a Jets for Jobs Career) pilots on the two existing seniority lists.

Come on guys, it's so simple! It's ALL ball bearings these days.

I think it's you who's struggling. About 800 pilots accepted recall and another 200 are set to be hired this year. So, the Nic puts 1000 or so pilots junior to the bottom 2005 AWA guy.

United is about 20% larger than the AAA/AWA pilot group so a relative position merge puts 1200 (or so) United pilots junior to the bottom AWA.

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

 

[TWA Dude]

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

This is an excellent point and it corroborates my repeated assertion that no single integration method is fair for every merger. Fair would be for furloughs to be shared amongst the parties so a 'relative seniority' method would have to be adjusted accordingly. My guess is that an arbitrator would do just that.

 

[get2flyin]

I think it's you who's struggling. About 800 pilots accepted recall and another 200 are set to be hired this year. So, the Nic puts 1000 or so pilots junior to the bottom 2005 AWA guy.

I see you still don't get the idea of ACTIVE pilots for the consideration of merging seniority lists. Did the recalled pilots mis-understand how a seniority list works? Any why would you even consider the 200 hired off the street? Are you suggesting they should be senior to Dave somehow? Unfortunately, the West pilots don't have access to the East list. I can't help but wonder....did all of those 800 who excepted recall actually stay or did they just show up to get their gift check and walk out?

United is about 20% larger than the AAA/AWA pilot group so a relative position merge puts 1200 (or so) United pilots junior to the bottom AWA.

OK, you're talking about relative seniority and that's pretty much how it works...is there a question in here somehow?

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

(Sigh) What is it you would like to happen? Have all of the West FOs fall on a sword, have the West Captains voluntarily down-grade, and then upgrade a bunch of former furloughees in Phoenix? Is that what you'd call "the right thing to do"? If guys thought coming back to USAir was such a screw job, why did they come back at all? Were they answering the siren's call of bumping a West captain out and taking his seat?