Has USAPA Contacted You?

[Thebadcat1313]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

Actually, no, it's not. Because that 89 hire spent most of his time since then furloughed and was furloughed when AWA saved US's ass. That 89 hire had no career expectations whatsoever three years ago, but Dave Odell did. That is what the arbitrator correctly recognized.

With that being said, it is almost impossible that the two would ever fly together anyway, even if they were in the same base. If Dave were to upgrade to captain, he would be junior on reserve on the smallest equipment. The 89 hire would probably be a senior f/o on a widebody at that point. These are the issues that you easties don't stop to think about. Nobody who was on the property when the merger went down would ever have to swing gear for Dave.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

Exactly! Don't confuse seniority with longevity.

18 years at Airways before the AWA rescue meant you got reserve FO in DCA. Your airline was in its 2nd BK and you were thinking you would be working at Home Depot in a few weeks.

18 years at AWA meant a pretty decent Captain slot at an airline that was hiring 30 a month while it operated at a profit from such unprofitable flying in the West.

You don't deserve to jump over guys because you think you worked here long enough. Your seniority at the old operation meant you were on reserve, why should you make captain 2 years after a merger?

Oh yeah, I forgot, because you're stoopid.

USAPA is a delusion wrapped inside an enigma ensconsed in an empty promise.

See you in court... Again....

 

[JT8D]

Exactly! Don't confuse seniority with longevity.

18 years at Airways before the AWA rescue meant you got reserve FO in DCA. Your airline was in its 2nd BK and you were thinking you would be working at Home Depot in a few weeks.

18 years at AWA meant a pretty decent Captain slot at an airline that was hiring 30 a month while it operated at a profit from such unprofitable flying in the West.

You don't deserve to jump over guys because you think you worked here long enough. Your seniority at the old operation meant you were on reserve, why should you make captain 2 years after a merger?

Oh yeah, I forgot, because you're stoopid.

USAPA is a delusion wrapped inside an enigma ensconsed in an empty promise.

See you in court... Again....

Don't kid yourself.

AWA was a low budget cruise ship masquerading as an airline.

 

[vetrider]

Don't kid yourself.

AWA was a low budget cruise ship masquerading as an airline.

....and it was AAA's best(only) option to continue operating. Wow.

In all seriousness, these little jabs can go back and forth forever. A jab back at me and Grog is easy, a no brainer. Why don't you address Occam and Bring up the Bird? What? No answer for that eh? Thats ok, there isn't one, they gotcha.

Usapa exposed, brought to you by BUTB and Occam.

 

[PositiveRate]

The east pilots had the chance to participate and craft the decision. In fact the arbitrator pleaded with them to modify their stance, but they refused. When they cling to an unreasonable position, how can they expect any decision to pass their "fairness" test.

How "fair" is it for one faction of the pilot group to make another portion suffer the loss of their ALPA protections, just so that they can prove a point?

How about responsible?
How about honorable?
How about trustworthy?

Well said.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

AWA was a low budget cruise ship masquerading as an airline

While AAA was running away to the east coast and trying to hide in their hubs and then trying to stave off the beast that is SWA by selling BWI, AWA was doing just fine and expanding in PHX and LAS; two of SWA's "strongholds."

AAA was a pathetic POS that started contraction the day after they killed another proud airline called PSA. Imagine it, they were number one in LAX with the take over of PSA and they let it slip away.

Say what you will about AWA, but AAA was dead on arrival. The very idea that east pilots think they saved us only shows how friggin' stoopid they are.

Months before our acquisition of AAA, AWA was fighting SWA for ATA. The only thing AAA was trying to do at that time was make payroll.

Now I hear murmurs from the east that in the event of a merger with UAL that you're gonna do the same thing you did to AWA and try to kill the deal. Oil is $120 a bbl and you guys are going to try and stop it so you can keep USAPA and thumb your noses at the real issue: Staying employed.

"Dad, why are we losing the house?"
"Well son, because I worked at USAir for 18 years and my name should be higher on a list than someone at the airline who bailed me out."

AAA, there will be a reckoning one way or another.

 

[regionaltard]

Don't kid yourself.

AWA was a low budget cruise ship masquerading as an airline.

Good thing they had some life preservers to spare, huh?

 

[Ocity]

Right on, I hear ya.

I just think that the US Airways thing should be settled among themselves. American separated from ALPA. Southwest is not ALPA. They are two very successful carriers.

To suggest that a carrier will not survive without ALPA is very closed minded.

To answer your question, Binding or not (IMO) the nic ruling was not fair. It's like a plea bargain where you know you are not guilty, but if you plead Innocent and are found guilty it's jail for life.

There are a few facts here that you're missing. Your homework assignment is to figure out the fundamental differences between SWAPA, APA, and USAPA.

That should take 2 minutes.

 

[TWA Dude]

Check out the AL-SAPA page on Wikipedia: http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airline_Pilots_Association

Some obvious errors (lies) there have recently been corrected.

 

[PositiveRate]

The east pilots had the chance to participate and craft the decision. In fact the arbitrator pleaded with them to modify their stance, but they refused. When they cling to an unreasonable position, how can they expect any decision to pass their "fairness" test.

How "fair" is it for one faction of the pilot group to make another portion suffer the loss of their ALPA protections, just so that they can prove a point?

How about responsible?
How about honorable?
How about trustworthy?

Funny how the jabs go back and forth, but no one from the East ever responds to the real issues.

I often joke that some people are destined to 'weed' themselves out and that that process shouldn't be interfered with. The problem here, is that the East used a simple majority to hogtie us to the back of their truck.

So don't go pontificatin' about fair and what 'had to be done'. Your myopic obsession to fight a losing battle has made all of us less secure in our daily work environment. Way to go!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

No it's not. That is NOT the "bottom line". That is an internal issue that is causing friction between pilot groups.

I'm referring to something bigger than that.

Your new union was brought aboard because it "wasn't ALPA!". I read the stuff. I watched the campaign. USAPA was "different" than ALPA...and the Nicolau Award was the sand in the oyster that led to the USAPA "pearl".

I understand that. I don't think YOU do.

I don't think you understand that USAPA and ALPA are identical on the touchstone issue: Binding Arbitration.

Let me repost my questions:

I suggested that the leadership of USAPA just might find themselves in a merger, where they end up in binding arbitration. Will they expect the other pilot group to abide by the arbitrator's ruling? Will they commit to abide by the ruling?

I don't think you'll answer the questions because I think you're smart enough to recognize the paradox.

You are going to expect other unions and pilot groups to do something you are unwilling to do.

That's why USAPA sucks...Period.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

While AAA was running away to the east coast and trying to hide in their hubs and then trying to stave off the beast that is SWA by selling BWI,

Selling???? You think that AAA "sold" something to SWA?

I don't know where you have been, but in this deregulated environment, it's all about competition.

At BWI, SWA saw a need...so they jumped on it. Remember when SWA started at BWI in 1993, they only flew to 2 destinations...seems nobody wanted to compete with SWA on routes to those 2 destinations...sooooo, SWA added more.

However, one really can't blame the AAA pilots for what happened at BWI....they had a delusional management team in place at the time...and an anti-competitive business plan in place.

And as you have seen in this industry, Pilots don't take part in the strategic planning....

...unless you guys do at your airline? Do you?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Bottom line is if 'Save Dave' (what is his DOH?-2003?)from AWA ends up a CA with a US 89 hire as an FO..that's FUBAR...BIG TIME!

No its not. Both guys were on the same spot on their respective seniority lists. The bottom !! If the 89 east hire is still on the bottom of his original senority list after all this time without taking the initiativitive to look for employment elsewhere,why should "Save Dave"' be penalized ? Both guys held low senority positions prior to and after the merger.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

....and it was AAA's best(only) option to continue operating. Wow.

In all seriousness, these little jabs can go back and forth forever. A jab back at me and Grog is easy, a no brainer. Why don't you address Occam and Bring up the Bird? What? No answer for that eh? Thats ok, there isn't one, they gotcha.

Usapa exposed, brought to you by BUTB and Occam.

Beautifully executed, I might add.



PHXFLYR

 

[johnnyb]

No its not. Both guys were on the same spot on their respective seniority lists. The bottom !! If the 89 east hire is still on the bottom of his original senority list after all this time without taking the initiativitive to look for employment elsewhere,why should "Save Dave"' be penalized ? Both guys held low senority positions prior to and after the merger.


PHXFLYR

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

 

[becket]

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

If the merger happens, nobody is going to "ask" anybody else for anything. It will go to binding arbitration. The two lists that will get merged are UAL and the Nic award. That's it. those are the only two legally binding seniority lists in existence.

 

[get2flyin]

Do you really think the United pilots will agree to staple 1200 of their own pilots junior to 'Save Dave 2005'?

I see many of you are still struggling with the concept of relative seniority. Dave will be positioned in a NEW merger seniority list exactly were his relative position among ACTIVE (*that means not furloughed or flying for a Jets for Jobs Career) pilots on the two existing seniority lists.

Come on guys, it's so simple! It's ALL ball bearings these days.

 

[johnnyb]

I see many of you are still struggling with the concept of relative seniority. Dave will be positioned in a NEW merger seniority list exactly were his relative position among ACTIVE (*that means not furloughed or flying for a Jets for Jobs Career) pilots on the two existing seniority lists.

Come on guys, it's so simple! It's ALL ball bearings these days.

I think it's you who's struggling. About 800 pilots accepted recall and another 200 are set to be hired this year. So, the Nic puts 1000 or so pilots junior to the bottom 2005 AWA guy.

United is about 20% larger than the AAA/AWA pilot group so a relative position merge puts 1200 (or so) United pilots junior to the bottom AWA.

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

 

[TWA Dude]

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

This is an excellent point and it corroborates my repeated assertion that no single integration method is fair for every merger. Fair would be for furloughs to be shared amongst the parties so a 'relative seniority' method would have to be adjusted accordingly. My guess is that an arbitrator would do just that.

 

[get2flyin]

I think it's you who's struggling. About 800 pilots accepted recall and another 200 are set to be hired this year. So, the Nic puts 1000 or so pilots junior to the bottom 2005 AWA guy.

I see you still don't get the idea of ACTIVE pilots for the consideration of merging seniority lists. Did the recalled pilots mis-understand how a seniority list works? Any why would you even consider the 200 hired off the street? Are you suggesting they should be senior to Dave somehow? Unfortunately, the West pilots don't have access to the East list. I can't help but wonder....did all of those 800 who excepted recall actually stay or did they just show up to get their gift check and walk out?

United is about 20% larger than the AAA/AWA pilot group so a relative position merge puts 1200 (or so) United pilots junior to the bottom AWA.

OK, you're talking about relative seniority and that's pretty much how it works...is there a question in here somehow?

Put another way, should there be a reduction, ALL furloughs will come from the United/US Airways pilot group. No former AWA pilots will ever face furlough.

(Sigh) What is it you would like to happen? Have all of the West FOs fall on a sword, have the West Captains voluntarily down-grade, and then upgrade a bunch of former furloughees in Phoenix? Is that what you'd call "the right thing to do"? If guys thought coming back to USAir was such a screw job, why did they come back at all? Were they answering the siren's call of bumping a West captain out and taking his seat?