Has USAPA Contacted You?

[johnnyb]

OK, you're talking about relative seniority and that's pretty much how it works...is there a question in here somehow?

Yes, it was my original question which I will repeat for you: "Do you think the United pilot group will agree to place 1200 of their pilots below the bottom AWest pilot hired in 2005"?

Which is what the Nic award will result in using a relative merge of active pilots if the PID was established this week.

The USAPA haters are deluding themselves if they think some United/ AWest ALPA merger love fest is in the works.

 

[TWA Dude]

The USAPA haters are deluding themselves if they think some United/ AWest ALPA merger love fest is in the works.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend."

Personally, I'd rather deal with AL-SAPA than another merger. It ain't up to me.

 

[get2flyin]

"Do you think the United pilot group will agree to place 1200 of their pilots below the bottom AWest pilot hired in 2005"?

Which is what the Nic award will result in using a relative merge of active pilots.

The USAPA haters are deluding themselves if they think some United/ AWest ALPA merger love fest is in the works.

Why is it so hard to accept your original RELATIVE seniority will transfer into the SAME relative seniority on the new list. If you were 5 years from upgrade at the old company, then you'll still be 5 years from upgrade in the merged company. I think they can accept that. Have you ever jump-seated on UAL? It's the only airline that I've ever ridden on were I was asked to show my ALPA card, I was asked if I ever crossed a picket-line, and then the Captain checked the "Scab List" before letting me ride. That's hard core Pro-Union and I respect that. Can you say the same?

And USAPA lovers are deluding themselves if they think it's going to be a USAPA/UAL love fest at the West expense. Don't be surprised if they ask you to bring your precious A330 manuals to the 1st meet and greet. Karma is a bitch.

 

[get2flyin]

Which is what the Nic award will result in using a relative merge of active pilots if the PID was established this week.

Johnny, forgot to mention...

UAL won't get the Nic formula rammed up their backside. I'm willing to bet they are smarter than that. That "final and binding" award was the result of East's, "DOH or nothing" pact. I think both sides will be a little more eager to try to find common ground during the mediation phase. Probably will include some fencing of the 747/777, and that's fine. Before you start...don't. That ship has sailed. You guys had your chance with fences around your precious 330/767 flying and your elected MEC blew it with their arrogance.

 

[UALjan15]

United is about 20% larger than the AAA/AWA pilot group so a relative position merge puts 1200 (or so) United pilots junior to the bottom AWA.

One of us doesn't understand the concept of relative seniority, and I think it's you. If the pilot groups were the exact same size, then I think we can agree that the combined list would go 1-for-1 between both groups,right? Now for the UA/US example, if we're talking about merging roughly 5200 with 6500, then in a perfect relative seniority world, each pilot's % on the list is the same on the pre and post merger list. UA's number 5000 becomes 8997 on the combined, and US's number 5000 becomes 11255 on the combined list of 11700. Because neither airline has guys on furlough right now, there is no group stapled to the end. The last US guy and the last UA guy should be within 1 or 2 numbers of each other.

Now where does O'Dell end up in this world? He is 4769 on the Nicolau, which by my calculations would put him at 10730 on the combined list, or 970 numbers from the bottom. What's the makeup of the list below him? About 539 UA guys and 431 US guys. Is he safe from furlough? Hardly--UA laid off over 2,000 last time around.

I was using rough numbers and a strict percentage slotting, but this should provide a rough idea of what a relative slotting would do. Who knows what sort of integration would really go down--but it will start with the Nic list on the US side.

 

[eaglesview]

First let me say I hope the merger doesn’t happen. If it does, don’t put all of UAL in one basket. There are plenty of folks who have had it with ALPA. The problem I have with the nic is it puts the younger guys with less seniority ahead of older more senior pilots. Nothing sucks more than the guy who is younger and senior. As I look at the list there is no logical place for mid seniority UAL pilots. (no I am not a fan of relative seniority) I would rather go DOH with fences that way you can enjoy the attrition that you rightfully deserve. You all can keep PHL CLT and PHX Hopefully all sides will be more reasonable and be able to come to an agreement or come to our senses and scratch the whole thing.

 

[Carl S.]

How do you enjoy the "Attrition" you bring to a new company? Your old attrition and senority number no longer work at the new company, ask the ATA and Aloha pilots if they wish to keep their old numbers. It is a new company and new attrition will apply. What was is no longer. Keep holding on to the past and the future will pass you right by, ask the USCABIANS living under LOA 93 for the distant future.

 

[FR8mastr]

So basically the West can have career expectations in the company, never be furloughed, upgrade to captain in 2 years, and take all the widebody flying they want in 5 years, and have better pay for all this time.
The East however is in a new company and is lucky to have a job.
Yep, that sounds fair and equitable.

 

[OnTheDole]

So basically the West can have career expectations in the company, never be furloughed, upgrade to captain in 2 years, and take all the widebody flying they want in 5 years, and have better pay for all this time.
The East however is in a new company and is lucky to have a job.
Yep, that sounds fair and equitable.

I'm gonna upgrade in two years??? Better go get that boat-trader magazine and start looking - i need time to do my research.

Jackass....

 

[Ocity]

First let me say I hope the merger doesn’t happen. If it does, don’t put all of UAL in one basket. There are plenty of folks who have had it with ALPA. The problem I have with the nic is it puts the younger guys with less seniority ahead of older more senior pilots. Nothing sucks more than the guy who is younger and senior. As I look at the list there is no logical place for mid seniority UAL pilots. (no I am not a fan of relative seniority) I would rather go DOH with fences that way you can enjoy the attrition that you rightfully deserve. You all can keep PHL CLT and PHX Hopefully all sides will be more reasonable and be able to come to an agreement or come to our senses and scratch the whole thing.

Shocking....Look up the difference between "seniority" and "longevity". I can't believe how many grown men can't distinguish the different meanings between the two words.

Career Cancer isn't transferable, no matter what Scabford and his "hand wringing little money demon" tell you.

 

[FR8mastr]

I'm gonna upgrade in two years??? Better go get that boat-trader magazine and start looking - i need time to do my research.

Jackass....

Well, you all seem to be spouting off about the 300 East upgrades so far that all should be yours. So yes, with Nic you should prepare for upgrade.

Maybe if you took time to understand things instead of throwing insults this would make sense.

 

[Carl S.]

Maybe he was talking about the E-190 Upgrades that the West got in arbitration but are unable to get access to till the USCABA era ends?

 

[johnnyb]

Now where does O'Dell end up in this world? He is 4769 on the Nicolau, which by my calculations would put him at 10730 on the combined list, or 970 numbers from the bottom. .

You need to rerun your calculations - he's 970 on the Nic list NOW - today!

 

[johnnyb]

. The problem I have with the nic is it puts the younger guys with less seniority ahead of older more senior pilots. Nothing sucks more than the guy who is younger and senior. As I look at the list there is no logical place for mid seniority UAL pilots. (no I am not a fan of relative seniority) I would rather go DOH with fences

And there you have it.

Thanks for replying Eaglesview as I was fishing for a reply from a United dude.

 

[eaglesview]

Who knows what sort of integration would really go down--but it will start with the Nic list on the US side.

You are correct in assuming that know one here knows how the final integration will go but after looking at the nic award I sure don't want to start there. I do believe the USAir merger commitee gambled and lost. I do not think the entire USAir group should be punished for it as the nic clearly does. If the merger happens (praying to the "let's go our seperate way" gods now) hopefully calmer heads will prevail.

Also I am looking forward to the union vote if the merger does go through. There are a number of UAL folk who have had it with ALPA. How about UAPA??

 

[TWA Dude]

I do believe the USAir merger commitee gambled and lost. I do not think the entire USAir group should be punished for it as the nic clearly does.

Have you actually read the Nicolau Award? You must not have since there's no vindictiveness or talk of punishment in it. It's nothing more than one of the most experienced arbitrators in the country doing what he thought was fair and he very clearly explained his reasoning. You're welcome to disagree with him but it's disingenuous to say he meted out any "punishment".

The Eastie's careers suffered due to two bankruptcies. Nicolau simply refused to restore their careers at the West's expense.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Not to mention the only complaint the East's Pilot Neutral stated was he felt the guys called back since the merger should be placed higher on the list. At that point about 300. Other than that, he commended Nicolau on his handling of the situation.