Hard work doesn't pay in Avation, unless you're a U.N.D. Grad!

[Mtnjam]

Quick rundown and story. I grew up in Foster and group homes dreaming of being a pilot one day, dropped out of high school, eventually got a G.E.D. Joined U.S. Marine Corps at age of 19, spent 5 yrs. active duty got out as a Sergeant. While on Active Duty,started working on Private Pilot and Bachelor of Science Degree in Aviation Management. While working full time even after exiting the Marines! Eventually earned Bachelor's and all flight rating's 40 thousand dollars later and with alot of outstanding loans that I cannot afford to pay on a CFI Salary. Left Chicago for a better CFI job in Annapolis, MD which is where I am stuck now, 10 yrs. after I began working towards being a Pilot. I worked while paying my own way through my education, spent all my money to move to Maryland to instruct FULL TIME and now with 1100 hours and 100 hrs. of Multi-Engine, am unable to move onto a Regional Airline because the way they are abusing newbie F/O's. My question is, how do these companies expect to find good quality individuals? Who are the people taking these jobs that don't pay you during training, don't pay for your hotel accomodations for approx. 8 weeks while you train, doc your pay for uniforms and only pay you a starting salary of around 20 to 22k? Then on top of that you have to move!!! Corporate jobs seem to be all about "who you know". Around the Baltimore, Washington D.C. area there are not many Pt. 135 operators that are very friendly.
10 yrs. of working towards making a dream come true and hearing about the 850 hr. total time pilot who just got hired at American Eagle because he's 22 and wet behind the ears from graduating from a university with an airline bridge program makes me want to puke! Seeing U.N.D. Grads instructing at my place of employment until they get 500 total time and moving onto Piedmont Airlines or Cirrus is not cool. My point is the underprivelaged, hard working U.S. Marine vet. at the age of 30 who slept in many rainy fox holes with a machine gun just can't get ahead of the U.N.D. Grad of age 22 with 500 hours of total time. The problem is that I'm not the only one!! I've been instructing for just over 2 yrs. and over 1 yr. full time. The back stabbing and other issue's in this industry that I've seen really turn me off an almost make me want to get a job at Wendy's flipping burgers, or returning to being a Grease Monkey on some big nasty Diesel Engine somewhere. Am I insane? Does anyone else see these issues on my level? Too bad everyone will not stand up to the airlines and say, "hey look take care of us a little better." What would the world do without air travel if all pilot's were on strike or would not take a job unless they got paid during training? They would eventually concave, but the problem is there are too many "pilot whores" and it will NEVER happen. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

did you think you would get a great job with 1100tt/100multi?

Not sure what you are looking for...

Thanks for the military service (seriously), good for you you got the GED and a degree, wonderful you got all your ratings and congrats on the 1100tt/100 multi...

now get you whining a$$ behind the 20,000 others..

and is your "dream" position one of theose Amercian Eagle or Piedmont jobs you are jealous of?? Why would one even care to work there? I think YOU WOULD be better off working on diesels....at least you could live..

nobody owes you a thing. Get yourself competitve on paper (more hours), and if you still cant land the job you want....look inward, stop blaming society and those college punks.....

 

[Mtnjam]

Nobody's blaming society. I have legit questions here. You must have a real nice job, if flying for a regional doesn't look appetizing to you. I think you've missed my point completely, but it's OK.

 

[350DRIVER]

You are always going to have these ERAU & UND "kids" willing to fly for the poverty wages at the regionals after spending $120,000 + of daddy's money. Money is not the issue, they will still get that "magic" check from daddy once or twice a month to pay for rent, expenses, etc,... That shiny new RJ & pilot uniform can do wonders for some.. It is comical to read some of these posts/threads that these "kids" will write on this board.. You will always have these fools willing to fly for sh!t poor wages so this ain't going to change and doesn't help anyone other than their egos while in that shiny new RJ.

I always get a good laugh from some of the pm's that I have gotten from them, mind boggling in more ways than one.

sad but very true..


3 5 0

 

[Resume Writer]

You have overcome a great deal of adversity in your life. Let me ask you this: Have you conveyed this to a potential employer? You need to tell them what makes you different and how the background you have has made you a stronger, more reliable person. Of course, I would leave out the amount of money you have paid for your education, being stuck instructing and the new FO abuse. (I am not sure what you mean by that phrase)

When I work with my clients, I ask them what is special, different or unique about them. There is always something and you certainly have that edge. But if it is not being communicated in the right way, it will get you nowhere. It does not have to be a novel. It might be 2-3 sentences in a cover letter. Give yourself the credit you deserve and sell your strengths and qualities in that cover letter.

Kathy

 

[Caveman]

Mtnjam,

Do me a favor. Either stop whining or stop identifying yourself as a former Marine. It's embarrassing.

With very, very few exceptions most of the new hires at our airline (CMR) come from one of three backgrounds: Former military pilots (helo and fixed wing), former 121 airline pilots or DCI Academy grads. Most new hires are NOT academy grads, maybe 1 in 4. My point is that roughly 2/3 to 3/4 of our new hires have considerable more TT and turbine experience than you do. Even our academy grads have as much or more time than you. Go get a job hauling checks or boxes. I know it doesn't pay squat but that's the deal these days. Work your way up to a 135 charter gig and then on to either a regional or an LCC. That's the formula. A few years ago you could slide into the regional with 1500TT but not any more. I'm guessing that 2 - 3 more years of fun flying will make you competitive at a good regional (CMR, ASA, AWAC, etc).

BTW, I wouldn't short change a good regional airline as a place to hang your hat. I'll grant you that 1st year pay sucks but it gets considerably better after that. The overall compensation isn't as good as flying a narrow body at a decent LCC but it is certainly a livable wage. Nobody likes making $25K the first year but plenty of pilots with way more experience than you have do what they have to do and get on with their lives. 1st year pay anywhere is horrible compared to the rest of that company's payscale.

Don't quit now. The hard part is over. You no longer have to pay to fly. You are getting paid to fly. It ain't much to start and it may seem like it's taking forever but it's worth the effort. Just pretend you have one more unaccompanied tour to do. Suck it up and it'll be over before you know it.

Semper fi,

Top

PS: Is Mtnjam any reference to the Allman Bros? Best band there ever was IMHO.

 

[f9driver]

Reply to Marine Vet

Hiring inequities in the airline business have existed almost from Orville and Wilbur's time. I came to Pan Am in 1965 and as a Nav/3rd Off. flew with many co-pilots who were WWII vets. These guys sat right seat as 20-22 yr. First Officers while a ton of young guys beat them out while they were overseas during the war. Many had commanded B-17's, B-24's and other big equipment but had to fly co-pilot for ex-CFI's who made Capt. in a few years.
A lot of us stayed in the service in the early sixties and waited for the airlines to start hiring again after the large furloughs caused by the arrival of the jets in 1960's. When the airlines started hiring they hired a bunch of Canadian pilots while a lot of us were stuck finishing our extended committments. It's the luck of the draw I guess.

 

[BoilerUP]

Thank you for your military service, and I dearly mean it. That being said, quit crying - it makes you sound horribly jealous. There are THOUSANDS of pilots out there who have fallen for the shiny "pilots are needed for the impending pilot shortage" ads in Flying, AOPA Pilot, & Flight Training magazine. People who got into this business only to make easy $$$ realized just how hard it is and have either bailed or are on their way out, and I think this is for the best.

I attend a major midwestern university with a well-known aviation program with flow-through agreements to multiple regional carriers, and the reason carriers have these flow-through programs is the (relative) high quality of pilot they produce. I AM NOT SAYING THESE UNIVERSITIES OR FLIGHT SCHOOLS PRODUCE "BETTER" PILOTS, I'm simply saying they tend to gear their training toward airline-style procedures, with emphasis on high performance, high altitude turbine aircraft operation. This combined with classroom systems and operations training produces a very knowledgeable individual who has a very high probability of excelling in training. Another benefit to the airlines is many pilots coming from these programs won't have the time to upgrade for 2 years or more so airlines get their maximum training dollar worth (with or without a training contract). Bottom line is the airlines wouldn't have these programs if the students from each respective school couldn't hold their own and meet standards, but I can't speak for their attitudes and social skills (or lack thereof, perhaps).

My college education is very expensive, and I am VERY thankful for all the financial help I have been provided by both the US Air Force and my parents, but my personal student loan debt is enough to make anybody cringe and I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy. Despite this, I am excited about the possibilities I have before me with several regional airlines. I am appreciative of any prefferential hiring agreement, but I don't expect anything from anybody and am humble enough to know my skills as an aviator and my attitude will get me a job, not the name on my diploma. I wish my peers all over the country had the same perspective.

If you truly have a love for aviation, and I'm sure you do, use that same determination you used to overcome adversity and continue to work hard towards that end. Airnet, Ram Express, Ameriflight and Flight Express are hiring 135 freight pilots like mad right now. They tend to pay better than the regionals for the first year, and will get you experience that is HIGHLY regarded.

You don't need me to tell you nobody owes you anything in this industry, and each pilot group is going to look out for themselves. As ideallic as it would be for everybody to stick together for better wages and work rules, a little research into the SOS of the 1980s shows how ineffective it truly would be. What would happen if all airline pilots struck? We'd probably all lose our jobs and possibly get thrown in jail for illegal work stoppage. How low would the bar fall then???

I wish you good luck, blue skies and tailwinds in your career, and I can only hope for the same for me.

 

[labbats]

I have the same amount of hours as you do, Mtnjam. After seeing regionals for what they are, and not being able to stand looking at a 5 year upgrade just so I can babysit some 500 hour pilot has made me strongly consider 135 flying.

I think hauling checks will make me a much more confident pilot, and give me a fallback plan (PIC multi time) if I get furloughed later on. People are always amazed that I'm in the financial situation I'm in as a pilot, but that's the reality of it. You can't fight that, just make your own way. And I think my way is flying small piston twins by myself for a couple years.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I did get your point, thanks..

My point was (in a nice way) to quit whining like a F'n girl and get some flight time so you can be somewhat competitive. Skirt.

"but I have 1000/100".

great...that and a 4 yr degree gets you a tacobell job in todays marketplace.