Gulfstream overrun at TEB

[Gulfstream 200]

Its the internet, everyone makes 250k flying a lear 60 and wouldn't ever lower themselves to fly a GIV for a charter company.

 

[K.V.]

Not worried and honestly I couldn't care less about Meridian.
Point is your post smacked of D'baggery toward the crew of the G-IV that went off the end and toward Meridian for your implication that the ad was posted to replace them.

Just sayin'................

That G-IV crew made the decision to continue the landing almost 2/3 the way down a 6,000' runway. I think a little D'baggery toward them is warranted.

Just sayin'.............

 

[JJET44]

Not worried and honestly I couldn't care less about Meridian.
Point is your post smacked of D'baggery toward the crew of the G-IV that went off the end and toward Meridian for your implication that the ad was posted to replace them.

Just sayin'................

I wouldn't call it D'baggery (if that's a real word) but more of an observation.
The only thing that's going to keep humans in the cockpit 30 years down the road is our ability to make GOOD decisions.
If Meridian is a member of ARG-US and /or Wyvern, I would think that they would take a hit for keeping the crew on.
Either way, I don't have a dog in this fight and from what you've posted, neither do you, so why are you getting so wraped about this?

 

[rice]

That G-IV crew made the decision to continue the landing almost 2/3 the way down a 6,000' runway. I think a little D'baggery toward them is warranted.

Just sayin'.............

I wouldn't call it D'baggery (if that's a real word) but more of an observation.
The only thing that's going to keep humans in the cockpit 30 years down the road is our ability to make GOOD decisions.
If Meridian is a member of ARG-US and /or Wyvern, I would think that they would take a hit for keeping the crew on.
Either way, I don't have a dog in this fight and from what you've posted, neither do you, so why are you getting so wraped about this?

Because I know both of these guys who were flying. They're both great individuals and very good pilots and neither K.V., you, or I know the ful circumstances behind what happened.
Maybe we all ought to wait and see what the NTSB has to say about the incident.

 

[LJ45]

Maybe we all ought to wait and see what the NTSB has to say about the incident.

I did post from the NTSB, they landed almost 2/3 down the runway with a little over 2,200 remaining on a wet runway?

 

[G4G5]

Rice brings out a good point don't be in such a rush to hang these guys.

Also from the NTSB report: "The airplane touched down at 120 knots and the copilot stated a red crew advisory system (CAS) message generated for ground spoiler deployment. Thrust reversers then deployed and braking began immediately, with activation of the anti-skid system"

Do you know what the FOM tells you to add to the landing distance when ground spoilers are completely inop? It's been a while since I was in a G4 but the penalty is substantial.

Have you ever flown a G4 in a gusty day and tried to land with no ground spoilers? No where does it say that the FO pulled the speed brakes when he saw the red message. SO he had no auto Ground Spoiler deployment and no manual back up.

When I first started in Gulfstreams I was flying with a know it all captain who was too busy watching me and not running the checklist, he forget to arm the Ground Spoilers on a similar day, and I didn't catch it. From experience I can tell you in that case, their is no way not to land long, you are going to float.

Granted the guy flying landed long BUT that wasn't the only thing that went wrong that day. So, until the full story comes out don't be in such a rush to crucify a guy with a family.



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20101004X11133&key=1

 

[waddawurld]

Or without a family

 

[semperfido]

When I first started in Gulfstreams I was flying with a know it all captain who was too busy watching me and not running the checklist, he forget to arm the Ground Spoilers on a similar day, and I didn't catch it.



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20101004X11133&key=1

Anyone I know? :uzi::smash:imp:

 

[Partyfoul]

"The copilot's statement was consistent with the PIC's. The copilot added that the airplane touched down about halfway down the runway and although the spoilers didn't initially deploy, the CAS light extinguished before he could manually deploy the spoilers."

From the report...

I have seen this happen MANY times when you have a smooth touchdown, the CAS goes off then you have spoiler deployment. It sounds too me like this is what might have happened. Using the rule of thumb of 1 knot,100 feet he floated at least 2600 feet based on the SIC statement of ref +10 crossing the threshold. Sounds like he was a little fast, floated a little long and good thing for him he had EMAS to save him and the plane. At least he walked away from it!!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Arrestor Roulette

How about we devise a game called Arrestor Roulette.

Right now, Im thinking of the numerous possibilites to the rules for touchdown and whether that bed saves your a$$ or not. Lets see who can land the furthest and still stay on the bed without blasting through a fence.

Opening round commences at TEB.


Register now.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Today was a bit sporty with a direct cross-wind at 20 knots. Problem was, we landed 24 and there isn't any EMAS of the end of 24...

 

[smails]

The EMAS is the swamp water that will stop you before you go into the berry creek deli!

 

[ultrarunner]

Smail's has it right. Besides, there is a endangered swamp rat species down at that end, so no development down there. Just let the swamp take care of you....

 

[JJET44]

When I first started in Gulfstreams I was flying with a know it all captain who was too busy watching me and not running the checklist, he forget to arm the Ground Spoilers on a similar day, and I didn't catch it. From experience I can tell you in that case, their is no way not to land long, you are going to float.

The ground spoilers deploy before touchdown on the G-IV?
What if you flare high?

 

[G4G5]

The ground spoilers deploy before touchdown on the G-IV?
What if you flare high?

They deploy with weight on wheels or wheel speed spin up

BUT if they are not armed (in my case) or you get a red Ground Spoiler message (in his case), then they do not deploy.

Gulfstreams are not like other aircraft, I have flown most Falcon types and I was amazed that you could land with the speed brakes deployed.

The wing is clean and you don't have any other leading edge devices to rely on to help you slow down. You need to get the weight on the wheels as fast as you can, hence the large penalty for spoilers being inop.

On a Falcon you don't even have auto ground spoilers, the plane stops perfectly fine without them. It's apples and oranges and I think that's what's hard for people to get a grip on.

 

[rice]

They deploy with weight on wheels or wheel speed spin up

BUT if they are not armed (in my case) or you get a red Ground Spoiler message (in his case), then they do not deploy.

Gulfstreams are not like other aircraft, I have flown most Falcon types and I was amazed that you could land with the speed brakes deployed.

The wing is clean and you don't have any other leading edge devices to rely on to help you slow down. You need to get the weight on the wheels as fast as you can, hence the large penalty for spoilers being inop.

On a Falcon you don't even have auto ground spoilers, the plane stops perfectly fine without them. It's apples and oranges and I think that's what's hard for people to get a grip on.

Just an FYI, Dassault finally joined the 21st century with the 900EASy (and I believe 2000 EASY/7X) which now have "Auto Airbrakes" on touchdown.
And yes the plane does land perfectly fine with them manually deployed prior to touchdown. Stopping distance is only marginally affected if they fail to deploy after weight on wheels.

 

[Rick1128]

The wing is clean and you don't have any other leading edge devices to rely on to help you slow down. You need to get the weight on the wheels as fast as you can, hence the large penalty for spoilers being inop.

Plus when light, the 4 takes some time to slow down, even with the engines at Flight Idle. That's why you will see 4's taxiing with one TR deployed. I found on the 4, when I was light, if I didn't start slowing down around the outer fence, I would float as much as 2000 ft. And in the conditions they were in, I suspect they were in no hurry to start slowing down.

 

[JJET44]

They deploy with weight on wheels or wheel speed spin up

BUT if they are not armed (in my case) or you get a red Ground Spoiler message (in his case), then they do not deploy.

Okay that's what I thought, but I just wanted to be clear before I ask my next question which is...........How does not arming the "GROUND" spoilers cause and airplane to float?

When you say "float" do you mean that the ACFT has made contact with the surface but the weight of the ACFT is not fully at rest on the surface due to the wing is still producing lift?

 

[ETav8r]

Unfortunately, when you are a co-pilot and in the final stage of landing, lets say below 50', you are along for the ride. The throttles are at idle and you are commencing a flare. As a copilot, if something does not look right, you can only bring it to the attention of the Captain flying, call go around, and hope he makes a safe decision. Some pilots have a get it on the ground mentality. How safe is it for the co-pilot to take away control of the airplane in the state they were in and push the throttles forward and initiate a go around. At this point, the co-pilot is along for the ride and hoping the Captain makes the right decision. In a crew environment, both being type rated and experienced in type, you must trust the pilot you are flying with, or your life as well as theirs will be a living hell. If they made it through initial and numerous recurrent training events and have not failed a 135 checkride, they must be able to fly the aircraft.
Unfortunately, this co-pilot was terminated and the Captain retained. He has a newborn to take care of and now has a blemish on his record for someone else's mistake. Would you hire him now, would you have retained him?
My question is if the Captain was in command of the aircraft and is still on the operating certificate, how much does that affect the ARGUS rating, as opposed to retaining the co-pilot who was not in direct control of the aircraft at the time of the incident? I do not think the co-pilot could have done anything different and surely could not press harder on the brakes than the pilot in command.
Wouldn't Meridian take a bigger hit by retaining the pilot flying in this case?

It is a shame that a good pilot is out of the job because one another pilots decision to continue landing the airplane.

 

[semperfido]

I'd like to know "All" the facts before I ventured into that territory.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I can guarantee there is more to the story than that!

 

[rice]

Unfortunately, when you are a co-pilot and in the final stage of landing, lets say below 50', you are along for the ride. The throttles are at idle and you are commencing a flare. As a copilot, if something does not look right, you can only bring it to the attention of the Captain flying, call go around, and hope he makes a safe decision. Some pilots have a get it on the ground mentality. How safe is it for the co-pilot to take away control of the airplane in the state they were in and push the throttles forward and initiate a go around. At this point, the co-pilot is along for the ride and hoping the Captain makes the right decision. In a crew environment, both being type rated and experienced in type, you must trust the pilot you are flying with, or your life as well as theirs will be a living hell. If they made it through initial and numerous recurrent training events and have not failed a 135 checkride, they must be able to fly the aircraft.
Unfortunately, this co-pilot was terminated and the Captain retained. He has a newborn to take care of and now has a blemish on his record for someone else's mistake. Would you hire him now, would you have retained him?
My question is if the Captain was in command of the aircraft and is still on the operating certificate, how much does that affect the ARGUS rating, as opposed to retaining the co-pilot who was not in direct control of the aircraft at the time of the incident? I do not think the co-pilot could have done anything different and surely could not press harder on the brakes than the pilot in command.
Wouldn't Meridian take a bigger hit by retaining the pilot flying in this case?

It is a shame that a good pilot is out of the job because one another pilots decision to continue landing the airplane.

I can guarantee there is more to the story than that!

Oh I'm sure there is. One side rarely tells the whole story. Both were good guys, sad that one had to take a hit.
But since I wasn't there it would be really poor judgment on my part to form an opinion on why which one was let go.