Gulfstream First Officer Program

[geographer]

I have been reading this for the past couple days and it amazes me how people can bash the PFT at Gulfstream when they know nothing about the program. You dont pay for your job at Gulfstream, you just pay for 250 hours in the 1900. The airline and the training academy are two seperate companies. Basically the students pay the acedemy to train them in the 1900 and then the academy leases the students to the airline for their 250 hours in the 1900. I was lucky enough to go thru the program before 9/11 so I am hired permanently with the company. In order to be hired after your 250 hours you have to go thru an interview with the airline just like anywhere else and you have to get letters of recommendations from captains you flew with. The airline currently has a hiring pool for FO's that have been interviewed, but since there has been little movement at the company nobody has been called. We do have a union for permanent hire employees that protects us from furlough if the students are flying.
As mentioned before many commuters did the same thing in the early 90's and nobody had a problem with them then. If you say it was because they hired people that is paying for your job. The difference with gulfstream you rent 250 hours then you interview for the job.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T

You dont pay for your job at Gulfstream, you just pay for 250 hours in the 1900.

But you are paid $8/hour during that time, aren't you? You receive a paycheck, don't you? Gulfstream Airlines deducts federal withholding taxes and Social Security, doesn't it? If I am wrong about these points, please correct me. I believe that I am correct:

Copied from the Gulfstream web site:

Gulfstream Academy's airline-affiliated flight schools offers today's career-oriented aviation professionals many unique advantages, including our one-of-a-kind written guarantee that each and every Gulfstream graduate will be accepted into Gulfstream International Airlines' paid First Officer training program.

Gulfstream Academy's First Officer Training Course is for licensed pilots and offers FAR 121 ground, simulator and flight training, plus 250 hours in a turbine-powered Beechcraft 1900 as a paid First Officer for Gulfstream International Airlines.

(emphasis added)

And the following was copied from the Gulfstream FAQ page:

2. Will I really get paid while I'm flying co-pilot during the 250 programmed hours?

Answer: Yes, you will be paid, $8.00 per flight hour, commencing when you have completed the Initial Operating Experience requirement, for the balance of the 250 hours.

(emphasis added)

Therefore, your paid-for 250-hour FO position is a job, for which you are paid and for which you paid. Implied in the FAQ answer is that you will not be paid during your IOE, which means that you will not receive compensation for all 250 hours for which you paid.

In the law, there is the concept of res ipsa loquitor, which means "the thing speaks for itself." It certainly does.

I was lucky enough to go thru the program before 9/11 so I am hired permanently with the company. In order to be hired after your 250 hours you have to go thru an interview with the airline just like anywhere else and you have to get letters of recommendations from captains you flew with.

Not only lucky. You were blessed.

But what's the percentage of P-F-T FOs who are hired and the percentage who are not?? Without a doubt in my $0.02 opinion, the latter far outstrips the former. Moreover, does Gulfstream hire street FOs? I suspect not. The only way one can hire on as Gulfstream FO is to pay for it, no?

As mentioned before many commuters did the same thing in the early 90's and nobody had a problem with them then.

Baloney. Were you looking for commuter flying jobs in the early '90s? I suspect not. I was. There indeed was P-F-T in the early '90s at many regional airlines. I, for one, had a bigggggg problem with it.

Please be careful about whom you accuse of being misinformed.

 

[geographer]

I dont want to get into a pissing contest with you over whos way is better. As for the pay during your 250 you are right it's 8 dollars an hour, which is why the cost of training keeps going up. Basically you are paying yourself and yes Gulfstream has to take out money for the IRS. The program used to cost about 15 grand less than it does today because fo's were not paid, but some legal issue came up and they found out they had to pay the FO's so they raised the price. Anyway it should not matter how people get their flight time because everybody is different.

As for you people who call PFT's scum bags that just shows your true colors as a human being.

 

[d.fitz]

How does everyone feel about places like CHQ that make you sign a $10,000 promissory note?

That looks to me exactly like paying for a job. It is a requirement of employment and would (or at least should) be in your paycheck as take-home pay.

I haven't and wont PFT because I dont agree with it. But I also think that people are quick to say that this is the evil of the industry and I dont agree with that, either. If you really look at it - you are paying for training one way or the other. You are paying for training by staying a flight instructor for longer - rather than having a friend walk in your resume. In this instance - you are paying in time - you could be a third year FO but you didnt apply for two extra years - now your a first year FO.

The real "evil" is that there are more pilots than positions and as such - the pay is crap. If there were 10 pilots and 300 positions at every airline - You sure would see a jump in pay. So if people PFT, doesnt really matter - its not going to change the pay up or down. There are alot of people who say that they wont give someone a shot if they have PFT, but there are a ton more that I know that couldnt care less - and some of those actually are on hiring boards... FWIW

I say - do what you can to get a job. If you cant "cut-in-line" in some fashion you arent getting hired in todays market. IMHO.

 

[luvthedc10]

Pay for training....................

Well, isn't going through college and earning all of the required licenses/ratings enough to pay for?? I'm astonished to hear what some people will pay to get a job, mostly due to the fact that it hurts others just as much as it will hurt themselves.

Can the average person afford to put themselves through flight school and then pay additional money to go through some special program that "guarantees" them a job? Um, no. Almost everyone I talk to that has done that has taken out tremendous loans and in the end what is the difference between them and a guy who has found a 135 outfit and stayed there to build his time...........nothing. Each person has their own opinion, and thats fine, but I never want to hear that paying for training is the ONLY way to get a job. Regardless of the economic climate, I still see people getting 135 jobs, they may not be the best or even close, but nonetheless, they are paid and you are building time. Ask a person who has PFT and I bet that none of them were happy about it, so if anything, sitting on this board and approving of such a thing is completely insane.

Like I said, to each his own. However, what is this really creating? It's creating an environment where a kid that normally would never do such a thing is forced to make a decision due to the fact someone else lowballs him. What are we talking about now? It is connections?? Is it pilot skill?? Is is technical expertise?? No, its money. Thats just not what the pilot profession should be about, just my opinion.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Promissory Notes v. training bonds and training contracts

How does everyone feel about places like CHQ that make you sign a $10,000 promissory note?

That looks to me exactly like paying for a job. It is a requirement of employment and would (or at least should) be in your paycheck as take-home pay.

It's not the same as paying for a job. It is a training bond. Take a look at the note. Probably, it expires after a time certain.

Training contracts and training bonds should not offend people. Airlines invest a lot of money in training crew. Training crew is expensive and regionals lose money if they cannot recoup their investment. I do not blame them for trying to keep their people. If someone says he/she will stay for X amount of time, he/she should keep his/her word. If someone leaves early, the person should be allowed to buy his/her way out of a training contract.

Training contracts and training bonds are not even similar to P-F-T. Once more, apply this two-prong test: (1) if the potential employee must remit money to the potential employer as a condition of hire and (2) the training the employer provides is specific to that employer only and has no application elsewhere and/or there is no market for it elsewhere, then it is P-F-T.

 

[geographer]

Actually it cost about $20 grand less for me to go to college, earn my certificates, and complete the gulfstream fo program than my sibling who went to Embry Riddle.

 

[B190Captain]

Like I said, to each his own. However, what is this really creating? It's creating an environment where a kid that normally would never do such a thing is forced to make a decision due to the fact someone else lowballs him. What are we talking about now? It is connections?? Is it pilot skill?? Is is technical expertise?? No, its money. Thats just not what the pilot profession should be about, just my opinion.

At GIA the money is not a condition of hire. It's their attitude and performance that makes them be eligible to be hired.

Granted they do pay for the training but they are recommended by line captains and interviewed before they make the seniority list.

If what you say is right Bobbysamd about money being a condition of hire is PFT then many other carriers out there at one time or another were PFT.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was distracted by this wonderful picture on the side of the screen.

 

[T-Gates]

I just want to know what kind of sites your surfin' to find that picture!