Gulfstream Academy "pilot factory" SCAM Revealed By CNN

[rustypigeon]

So question is how is one to gain experience flying in the type of weather and environment the airline pilots fly in? I just don't understand how pilots are to gain experience to fly for a 121 carrier. Just don't understand.

Well, there are a lot of us who instructed until we had 135 mins. We then flew 135 until we had enough experience to look respectable during our 121 interview.

Paying to sit in the right seat is not the way many of us choose to begin our careers. That money is better spent for a down payment on a house.

Understand now?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Well, there are a lot of us who instructed until we had 135 mins. We then flew 135 until we had enough experience to look respectable during our 121 interview.

Paying to sit in the right seat is not the way many of us choose to begin our careers. That money is better spent for a down payment on a house.

Understand now?

Bingo. Although I kept building time flying corporate and aircraft sales on top of instructing until I got a call. I was one of the lowest time guys in the interview at 9E and I had 1700 hours. Then half my newhire class was GIA.

 

[cynic]

Today's headlines will be forgotten tomorrow. Though the dirty truth to poor pay, poor training and the continued degrading of our careers will just give the people stepping on our airplanes even less respect for us than they give now. None of this will change a thing except and even greater mocking of our careers. F>>K the media. I'm still smarter and mentally tougher than %80 of the people who step on my airplane. This job is not for the mentally or physically fragile and they should be grateful their pilot has the mental horsepower to stay intact in our industry's working conditions..THEY HAVE NO CLUE.

No, you are not. Its likely you are just average. Most people are. Since we are on the topic; you are not a better driver than most, nor are you a better than average pilot and you are definitely not unique or special.

 

[Nindiri]

Well, there are a lot of us who instructed until we had 135 mins. We then flew 135 until we had enough experience to look respectable during our 121 interview.

Paying to sit in the right seat is not the way many of us choose to begin our careers. That money is better spent for a down payment on a house.

Understand now?

Oh yeah, that's just what I'd want to do, bounce around in some beat up old Baron in crappy weather hoping to survive long enough to get that 121 job. You and I may have been lucky enough to get nice jobs to build experience, but not everyone has the chance. I was fortunate enough to be in the right time and place to get a nice corporate gig and build turbine time, but those jobs are limited and I would never criticize someone else for taking a different route to the right seat of a 121 airliner. If I was one of those kids and my choice was to rent a Seminole for 250 hours or spend the same money flying a turbine aircraft for 250 hours at GIA, the choice would be easy.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Okay just a question for all those who say you should have many, 1500, hours before you are allowed to fly 121. How well does flying 2000 hours in a 172 prepare you for the 121 flying environment? Sure you will be good at basic airmanship but how many times do you fly at night, in ice conditions, with a stick shaker, pusher, and complex airplane. If you watch the video the captain did not touch the power and lost 35kts of airspeed, changed configuration three times with flaps and gear, autopilot still on, and yet to touch the power. AP kicks off, the airplane i am sure is trimmed nose up to the sky, ac pitches up stalls shaker/pusher, then the captain pulls back after the pusher. How does flying a 172, Archer, Arrow, Seminole, what ever prepare you for this kind of flying. And its not GIA fault as they do not have AP or shaker/pusher on the 1900. I think it would be Colgan's responsibility to train a pilot on the AC that he is flying. I have trained many pilots in the sim for GIA and have seen many 1000, 2000 hours plus pilots fail. So question is how is one to gain experience flying in the type of weather and environment the airline pilots fly in? I just don't understand how pilots are to gain experience to fly for a 121 carrier. GIA has trained over 3000 pilots without ever having a fatality at our airline. But all of a sudden a pilot that has been gone for 4 years has 3000 plus hours, at least 6 checkrides, 1 being a fed ride for his ATP, all while at Colgan and nobody ever recognized the faults of this pilot, but its GIA fault the the training he did 4 years ago?? Just don't understand.

Its simple, 1500-2000 in the GA world will expose a pilot to all the temptations to stupid stuff and survive or.....not. Weather, ice WX are all thing that are put into the basket, its not rocket science. Its about attitude, and survival skills and GA simply hones those skills with minimal exposure to the flying public, do something stupid in a 152, you, your student and his cat are a smoking hole, sad but not a big deal, unless someone liked the cat. Gulfstream is about cutting corners career wise and as a result the types of people who would try to make the 410 klub or pitch up during a stall event show one common denominator, poor attitudes and skills, a bad combo. Sorry about the runons and spelling, 10 hours of Jack and Coke will make them less than important!
PBR

 

[s3jetman]

Well, there are a lot of us who instructed until we had 135 mins. We then flew 135 until we had enough experience to look respectable during our 121 interview.

Paying to sit in the right seat is not the way many of us choose to begin our careers. That money is better spent for a down payment on a house.

Understand now?

Okay i understand your point of view on pft, but that is not what this thread is about. So flying 135 your pax were not important because there was only a handful 2 to 6 pax? or was your 135 experience doing night cargo? If that is the case you did get some good experience with that operation, and you deserve to be where your at, but not everyone goes that way. If you want to argue pft do it on another thread that talks about pft. And i invite anyone who things they are a great pilot to come fly one day of 7 hours and no autopilot in the crap weather in the NE. I am not claiming to be chuck Yeager just saying GIA pilots are as good stick and rudder guys as you will find. what bad habits our pilots pick up when they leave to other airlines is not out fault, ex. flying with autopilot improperly, not scanning all information, not using basic pilotage which should of been taught at the private level. Who does those check rides o yea the FAA

 

[s3jetman]

Its simple, 1500-2000 in the GA world will expose a pilot to all the temptations to stupid stuff and survive or.....not. Weather, ice WX are all thing that are put into the basket, its not rocket science. Its about attitude, and survival skills and GA simply hones those skills with minimal exposure to the flying public, do something stupid in a 152, you, your student and his cat are a smoking hole, sad but not a big deal, unless someone liked the cat. Gulfstream is about cutting corners career wise and as a result the types of people who would try to make the 410 klub or pitch up during a stall event show one common denominator, poor attitudes and skills, a bad combo. Sorry about the runons and spelling, 10 hours of Jack and Coke will make them less than important!
PBR

First of all every airline has pilots that make stupid mistakes, 410k club, pitch up during stall, I do not disagree. but how is it GIA fault that these pilots made these mistakes when they have been in another airline for 3 plus years. if these pilots were improperly trained by GIA and were such horrible pilots why the hell didn't colgan and pinchinickle figure this out in any of the many checkrides these individuals took. I just dont get how after 3000 hours and over 6 checkrides at colgan you can say that GIA trained and its GIAs fault they crashed. So all buisness schools that the managers ceo's, etc from Enron, AIG, GM, Ford, Chrystler, All banks that failed, should be shut down because they did not teach the individuals good business practices. Give me a break man

 

[DrProc]

So all buisness schools that the managers ceo's, etc from Enron, AIG, GM, Ford, Chrystler, All banks that failed, should be shut down because they did not teach the individuals good business practices. Give me a break man

The banks and those failed companies weren't killing people!

 

[FastJP4]

I wonder what happens if the media gets on the CFI aspect. FO with 1600 hours of instruction was part of the crew if I remember correctly. Then the media can get info on how many accidents and fatalities have occured with CFI's doing instruction. Then what - maybe raise the requirement to 1500 + hours before allowing an individual to instruct?

 

[waka]

Why all this talk of just raising 121 standards and nothing of 135 or 91k? If ATP mins are required of a 121 FO candidates, they should also be required of a 135 FO candidate. If it is an operation that requires that the Captain have their ATP, then the FO should have at least ATP mins regardles of whether it is 121 or 135.

 

[DX Rick]

I wonder what happens if the media gets on the CFI aspect. FO with 1600 hours of instruction was part of the crew if I remember correctly. Then the media can get info on how many accidents and fatalities have occured with CFI's doing instruction. Then what - maybe raise the requirement to 1500 + hours before allowing an individual to instruct?

Good try, but when a CFI puts a super duper massive C-172 into the ground, it usually just kills himself and the student. It might bounce off a car or two. Land on and flatten a squirel....but not killing 50+ people.
Little planes crash all the time, we barely hear about them.

 

[rustypigeon]

Okay i understand your point of view on pft, but that is not what this thread is about. So flying 135 your pax were not important because there was only a handful 2 to 6 pax? or was your 135 experience doing night cargo? If that is the case you did get some good experience with that operation, and you deserve to be where your at, but not everyone goes that way. If you want to argue pft do it on another thread that talks about pft. And i invite anyone who things they are a great pilot to come fly one day of 7 hours and no autopilot in the crap weather in the NE. I am not claiming to be chuck Yeager just saying GIA pilots are as good stick and rudder guys as you will find. what bad habits our pilots pick up when they leave to other airlines is not out fault, ex. flying with autopilot improperly, not scanning all information, not using basic pilotage which should of been taught at the private level. Who does those check rides o yea the FAA

You asked how one gains experience in order to fly for a 121 carrier. You kind of asked your question as if there was no other choice but to pay for a right seat.

I simply told you a more practical method of obtaining that experience, and what you could do with the money you would save.

 

[s3jetman]

Good try, but when a CFI puts a super duper massive C-172 into the ground, it usually just kills himself and the student. It might bounce off a car or two. Land on and flatten a squirel....but not killing 50+ people.
Little planes crash all the time, we barely hear about them.

Unless that one person is your wife, husband, kid, father, mother, or friend then all of a sudden it will matter to you. Thats a stupid argument and if your going with it then GIA is the best place because they are only going to kill 19 at a time not 50. Worthless and stupid comment on your part

 

[HA25]

I don't think that anyone is saying, blanket statement that all GIA trained pilots are idiots, that's a very stupid thing to say if anyone is.. the fact is there are a lot of GIA trained pilots making good decisions and flying safely all over the system... what people ARE saying is.. GIA isn't he best way to train pilots, and to insure they're getting a good amount of that critical thing called PIC.. PIC in a C152 is still "hot seat" time and you are the final authority over that aircraft.. you don't get to look over to the left seat and ask, "now what?"... you ARE the left seat. This is a critical and formative part of what makes a pilot, but more importantly is a critical weeding out process that some just don't make it thru (for many reasons).. FAA violations, Accidents, or simply scaring themselves to death once too many with a student..

So again, are GIA pilots all poor? no.. surely many of them are professionals and take pride in their job and learn it to the best of their ability.. but, is GIA the best way to train pilots? Far from it..

 

[s3jetman]

I don't think that anyone is saying, blanket statement that all GIA trained pilots are idiots, that's a very stupid thing to say if anyone is.. the fact is there are a lot of GIA trained pilots making good decisions and flying safely all over the system... what people ARE saying is.. GIA isn't he best way to train pilots, and to insure they're getting a good amount of that critical thing called PIC.. PIC in a C152 is still "hot seat" time and you are the final authority over that aircraft.. you don't get to look over to the left seat and ask, "now what?"... you ARE the left seat. This is a critical and formative part of what makes a pilot, but more importantly is a critical weeding out process that some just don't make it thru (for many reasons).. FAA violations, Accidents, or simply scaring themselves to death once too many with a student..

So again, are GIA pilots all poor? no.. surely many of them are professionals and take pride in their job and learn it to the best of their ability.. but, is GIA the best way to train pilots? Far from it..

Point well addressed. I am just sick of the way the media is saying that all GIA pilots are dangerous and are going to kill people. Your opinion is your opinion and your entitled to it. At least you use some common sense when discussing this matter. We all need to work together to ensure that our paxs are the safest they can be and how we do that will require team work from everyone in this industry and the FAA.

 

[AerroMatt]

ATP for Part 121 operations, or Why instruct for 1000hrs instead of PFT?

Consider:

One of the most common maneuvers a CFI teaches is the Stall recognition / Stall recovery. After teaching this a few hundred times, the CFI quickly recognizes when the person at the controls has made the wrong control input and will say "I have the controls" and recover correctly.

Did the Captain of Colgan 3407 ever hold a CFI? If he had, I think he would have realized what the correct action should have been. Pulling the yoke into ones lap is a knee-jerk reaction to an unexpected situation.

Did the FO of Colgan 3407 ever hold a CFI? I am thinking that if she had, she could have recognized the problem the capt was having and could have assisted more assertively. Maybe she could have taken over during those 6 seconds that the yoke was back in the Captains lap.

I'm positive GIA produces some fine pilots, but this one slipped though the cracks I'm afraid.

 

[Kream926]

Okay just a question for all those who say you should have many, 1500, hours before you are allowed to fly 121. How well does flying 2000 hours in a 172 prepare you for the 121 flying environment? Sure you will be good at basic airmanship but how many times do you fly at night, in ice conditions, with a stick shaker, pusher, and complex airplane. If you watch the video the captain did not touch the power and lost 35kts of airspeed, changed configuration three times with flaps and gear, autopilot still on, and yet to touch the power. AP kicks off, the airplane i am sure is trimmed nose up to the sky, ac pitches up stalls shaker/pusher, then the captain pulls back after the pusher. How does flying a 172, Archer, Arrow, Seminole, what ever prepare you for this kind of flying. And its not GIA fault as they do not have AP or shaker/pusher on the 1900. I think it would be Colgan's responsibility to train a pilot on the AC that he is flying. I have trained many pilots in the sim for GIA and have seen many 1000, 2000 hours plus pilots fail. So question is how is one to gain experience flying in the type of weather and environment the airline pilots fly in? I just don't understand how pilots are to gain experience to fly for a 121 carrier. GIA has trained over 3000 pilots without ever having a fatality at our airline. But all of a sudden a pilot that has been gone for 4 years has 3000 plus hours, at least 6 checkrides, 1 being a fed ride for his ATP, all while at Colgan and nobody ever recognized the faults of this pilot, but its GIA fault the the training he did 4 years ago?? Just don't understand.

so you went to gulfstream i see...

what the fu*k DO YOU THING WE DO AN ORAL FOR? huh??



you know what im so aggravated at your post im going to stop typing, i will say this though. CJC3407's pilots, both of them ********************ed up the ******************** up big time. all she had to say was "push the ********************ing nose down". if that ********************ing guy knew his systems (unlike most of you) he would have known there IS NO STALL WARNING OR PROTECTION SYSTEM FOR TAIL PLANE ICING

 

[Poahi]

ATP for Part 121 operations, or Why instruct for 1000hrs instead of PFT?

Consider:

Did the FO of Colgan 3407 ever hold a CFI? I am thinking that if she had, she could have recognized the problem the capt was having and could have assisted more assertively.

Time to consider a different theory:

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/news/39570794.html

 

[AerroMatt]

Time to consider a different theory:

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/news/39570794.html

So she was a CFI. Makes it worse for sure. I will have you note that in the quote you extracted from my post I said she, "could have assisted more assertively." I did NOT say she would have done so. How much time did she log as a CFI, I wonder?

Speculation abounds. I think its still worth considering. The fact remains they were as much as 35 degrees nose up with the yoke all the way in both their laps, and neither one mentioned either the airspeed nor said anything about "push the yoke forward!"

 

[FastJP4]

Good try, but when a CFI puts a super duper massive C-172 into the ground, it usually just kills himself and the student. It might bounce off a car or two. Land on and flatten a squirel....but not killing 50+ people.
Little planes crash all the time, we barely hear about them.

We're talking about principles here. Many suggest a minimum of an ATP for 121 flying. I concur that if they end up requiring that for 121, they should also require that for 135 & 91k. In this case however, I don't think it would have made a difference.

Nice try? I wonder how many people in those "super duper massive 172's" you refer to have been killed in the last 5 - 10 years with their flight instructors? Sadly, I'm sure the number is higher than it was in this tragedy. Are those lives less valuable because they are happening in a small plane? My point was you had an ATP and an FO that was a 1600 hour instructor operating this flight, and it appears they both f'd up. If instructing is the holy grail based mechanism as so many seem to suggest - then how did this happen?

I am playing devils advocate here for a reason. I think GIA and all of the others that have had PFT are fair game in that aspect, but to suggest they had anything to do with this guy some 3,000 hours later is absurd. And the one thing that seems to stick in my mind is GIA has never (knock on wood) had a fatality. How many other regionals can say that?

Personally, what may have helped to avoid this, help curb the SJS that seems to afflict a high percentage of those entering the regional level, help to raise pay and avoid the PFT aspect is to really raise the bar on experience. Why not require any pax operation, no matter which FAR it's operating under, to require a minimum of 2,500 for all pilots.

 

[CX880]

So she was a CFI. Makes it worse for sure. I will have you note that in the quote you extracted from my post I said she, "could have assisted more assertively." I did NOT say she would have done so. How much time did she log as a CFI, I wonder?

Speculation abounds. I think its still worth considering. The fact remains they were as much as 35 degrees nose up with the yoke all the way in both their laps, and neither one mentioned either the airspeed nor said anything about "push the yoke forward!"

Actually if you look at the tape, they were actually climbing the first few seconds after the shaker or pusher. Along with the 20 degree pitch up the FO probably thought they were climbing and put the flaps up, they never noticed the speed and the drop on the VSI and so they never recovered. But the CA did such a bad job flip flopping the rudders fully, very doubtful they would have survived it anyways.

 

[CX880]

We're talking about principles here. Many suggest a minimum of an ATP for 121 flying. I concur that if they end up requiring that for 121, they should also require that for 135 & 91k. In this case however, I don't think it would have made a difference.

Nice try? I wonder how many people in those "super duper massive 172's" you refer to have been killed in the last 5 - 10 years? Sadly, I'm sure the number is higher than it was in this tragedy. My point was you had an ATP and an FO that was a 1600 hour instructor operating this flight, and it appears they both f'd up. If instructing is the holy grail base mechanism as so many seem to suggest - then how did this happen?

I am playing devils advocate here for a reason. I think GIA is fair game regarding the PFT aspect, but to suggest they had anything to do with this guy some 3,000 hours later is absurd. And the one thing that seems to stick in my mind is GIA has never (knock on wood) had a fatality. How many other regionals can say that?

Personally, what may have helped to avoid this, and avoid the PFT aspect is to really raise the bar. Why not make it 2500 hours to fly pax in whatever form of FAR they're flown in.

I agree with you, this has nothing to do with being a CFI or having 1500. And the facts are that these pilots were high timers anyways. Gulfstream is a problem because of the type of people that place attracts. It has nothing to do with the school, the personalities that the place attracts that continue to keep the Gulfstream stigma alive.

 

[Poahi]

So she was a CFI. Makes it worse for sure. I will have you note that in the quote you extracted from my post I said she, "could have assisted more assertively." I did NOT say she would have done so. How much time did she log as a CFI, I wonder?

Speculation abounds.

When I went through ALPA's accident investigation courses, the first thing they taught was that you don't speculate. You take facts, rule out possibilities and let the evidence lead you to the answer.
Around this board, we assert conclusions first based on bias, emotion and personal agendas, then we hunt for anecdotes that support that particular conclusion.

Fortunately, the NTSB doesn't subscribe to this view. If you want to know what happened, read through the documents and start with what is known. If your thesis is that the captain wouldn't have stalled the airplane if he only had 500 hours of instructor time, or that he wouldn't have survived that 500 hours of instructor time and be a 121 pilot, what evidence supports that view? One possibility might be to look at the CFI washout rate.

Gulfstream's training department didn't cause Colgan 3407.

 

[s3jetman]

This dildo in the CNN video makes some of the dumbest comments ever that show this idiot knows nothing about the pilots involved in the accidents. CNN is stupid for not doing research to before running a idiot on national tv making comments like he did.

Idiot " These accidents happened because GIA has soft training of a pilots initial pilot foundation"

Flagship - Jesse Rhodes - Off the street captain at GIA came from, i believe, American Eagle via Embrey Riddle. So its either Riddle or AE weak training. He was at Pinchanickle for over 3 years, buy the way Pinchanickle High Altitude training is very poor at best.

Colgan - Marvin Renslow - Primary training at, unnamed flight school, did 250 hours at GIA on an airplane the has neither stall safty features installed on the Q. Primary training on the Q at colgan, 3000 plus hours and 6 check rides at Colgan


GTA - Mark Whiley - Pilot on the 172 mid air, had his family with him and yes probably wasn't flying the airplane 100 percent of his attention outside. But neither was the other plane a Mutli Engine with an experienced pilot who had his CFI. Partial fault for this accident was Pompano tower and FXE tower hand off. Cant blame this on any one individual


I personally knew all of the above mentioned pilots, all were exceptional men and I take nothing from them. God rest, bless, their souls for they have all lost their lives and hopefully have taught us all something new in our experiences.

I'm out!

 

[SEVEN]

Actually, they are. GIA's safety record is impeccable. Twenty years without a single fatality. About the worst thing that's ever happened to them has been a gear malfunction and the crew had to land with the nose gear still up. No injuries. Not even a scraped knee.

I'm not talking about Gulfstream Airlines. I'm talking about Gulfstream Training Academy. This is the corelation between many fatalities and that flight school.

 

[HA25]

Time to consider a different theory:

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/news/39570794.html

Right and the most frightening part is the PULLED the flaps in a stall recovery... Which is to say, how can this women have been a CFI, doing possibly 100's of stalls with students over her career (1200+ hours of CFI must take 3 years to do).. and study aerodynamics (or did she?).. and then react this way in an emergency?

I have my own theory on this, but that's for another thread.

 

[rustypigeon]

.....................

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I agree with you, this has nothing to do with being a CFI or having 1500. And the facts are that these pilots were high timers anyways. Gulfstream is a problem because of the type of people that place attracts. It has nothing to do with the school, the personalities that the place attracts that continue to keep the Gulfstream stigma alive.

Thats rich, comming from a gheyjhetter!
Priceless!
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I personally knew all of the above mentioned pilots, all were exceptional men and I take nothing from them. God rest, bless, their souls for they have all lost their lives and hopefully have taught us all something new in our experiences.

I'm out!

Too bad they weren't exceptional aviators, now they have seats next to Jeffery Dahmer, John Gacy, and Ted Bundy in infamy.
Sorry to burst your bubble, they weren't accidents, these tragedies happened because they were sub-standard aviators, by definition. Did you instruct any of them?
PBR

 

[B52GUNNER]

No one seems to care that TWO of the crashes were from the same company PINNACLE. 3701 was a Pinnacle flight. 3407 was Colgan (who is owned by Pinnaacle) Why does this not get the attention it deserves? Sure, ex GIA people were on the planes but GIA does not fly the planes they crashed, so........Who trained them on the planes they DID crash? Oh.... ok Pinnacle training. Am I the only person out there that sees this?