Guilty!!!

[GogglesPisano]

Every professional pilot should be alarmed that these guys were prosecuted in a state court for something concerning their federal license.Radar traps on taxiways are next.

 

[zonker]

~~~^~~~ <--- Fins to the left!

It is a reference to a song by another pilot troubador, a son of a son of a sailor born in the wrong century. But oops, I am off topic.

I interviewed these pilots' attorneys in the first round of appeals while they were still spending their first $100,000 of their own money defending this case. It was a first offense.

Actually, I believe Cloyd had a domestic violence and a prior DUI arrest on his record. I'm not sure if that was admissible evidence, but at any rate, he wasn't a choirboy.

But your prior points are well taken, and I agree with you.

 

[castle bravo]

Just where is ALPA on all of this?

 

[Lequip]

Sweet Justice! Give em 5 and let em Rot!

 

[Captain Overs]

Every professional pilot should be alarmed that these guys were prosecuted in a state court for something concerning their federal license.Radar traps on taxiways are next.

Why be alarmed? When you act in a reckless manner you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't feel sorry for these guys.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Nationalist would be more accurate or

racist? i don't think so. everyone can agree they are a bunch of weenies (that have good wine and some good food)

Nationalistic with low tolerance for others.

 

[Dog Driver]

Why be alarmed? When you act in a reckless manner you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't feel sorry for these guys.

You are missing the point .....

I don't feel sorry for them either .....

Yes, if you act stupid, you should be punishied right ??

Ok, now who decides what is stupid ?? FAA ?? Florida ?? Me ?? My dog ??

Now, who is going to punish the 'stupid' people ??

Understand that this OPENS the door to NON-AVIATION people writting laws that regulate AVIATION and the need for every pilot to learn a bunch of random local laws that we do not train for.

How many times have you heard 'NO FLIGHT PLAN ON FILE'? Sounds dangerous and stupid (to a non-aviation person)!!!! We need a law !!!!!

Yes, DUI is a universal no-no...what they did is not the point. But it is no more the state's buisiness to punish these guys then it is mine, yours or my dogs. It is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ... the same entity that WROTE the AVIATION laws. We have agreements with other countries to use the same, universal laws just to avoid this mish-mash of localized laws. Aviation and Maritime operations are and need to be different. We cover too much teritory to not have a common set of rules and enforcement.

Think of it this way ..... you killed someone, should you be tried by a jury of your peers, convicted and punished or...
Dragged out into the street, beaten and hung by a mob ?? Yes, you did something wrong and should be punished, right ?? What difference does it make who punishes you ??

 

[GogglesPisano]

Why be alarmed? When you act in a reckless manner you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't feel sorry for these guys.

Reckless as defined by what entity? The FAA? The state? The city? Let's assume you get stopped going through security and randomly breathalized because some local politician in Texas (or Alabama, or New York) decides that pilots should be randomly tested over and above FAA guidelines. You had a glass of wine with dinner the night before (more than 12 hours) and you blow a meager 0.0002%. Perfectly legal right? Wrong, the local authorities have just passed "zero tolerance" policy for flight crew "in the public interest." Off to the hooswkow with you for 5 years. You think the press will be sympathetic?

Another example: They stop you at security because you have a newspaper in your flight bag. A local politician has passed a law forbidding flight crews from "attempting" to read non-flight-related publications in the cockpit. Again, what do you think the local press would report?

Already overseas flight crews are being criminally prosecuted for making honest mistakes -- "pilot error."

Let's just answer to the FAA -- that's hard enough.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just where is ALPA on all of this?

After the revocation of their Certificates for proper cause, ALPA took the position that they were no longer pilots and the union could not defend them in this civil matter.

They are out over $100,000.00 in defense costs, out of their own pockets.

 

[redflyer65]

You guys are missing the fine points on what is going on. I agree with where you are coming from but remember these facts....

1- In reality the FAA has no teeth. Whats the worst they can do? Pull their tickets and possibly disallow a re-instatement later. Thats it. Yea, the FAR says .04%, but they can't do anything more.

2-The Federal statute on operating a vehicle is .10%, so guess what, you are not going to see a federal case on this. It's simple not there.

The focus of the defense was if they had been operating the aircraft. I believe that as soon as they started running checklist and doing flows, they were operating the aircraft. I can't believe how far they took there stupidity. If anyone gets themselves in this situation (and there shouldn't be a reason to drink this much on an overnight anyway), just call in sick and preserve the rest of your career, and don't endanger anyone else's life. We get enough bad press as it is.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Redflyer:

Loosing my certificate would cost me over $5,000,000.00 in net present value of future earnings at 6% inflation. That isn't teeth?

Ask the Delta and American pilots who enjoyed $300,000 incomes, who then retired with over $3,000,000.00 how valuable their certificates were.

The FAA has the power to keep me out of my profession - that is some teeth.

 

[Dog Driver]

I do have to say that thier defence was totally stupid ... they had NO defence... they where wrong. The money they spent .... thier choice. If they knew they were guilty (I am sure they knew) they could have pleeded guilty and not spent the money.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Dog Driver:

The first Defense was on Constitutional grounds. However the Court of (no) jurisdiction will not fairly hear a Constitutional defense, this defense was crafted on local law, probably having to do with the fact that they did not actually drive anywhere under the influence.

For example, I might think of having a wild weekend with Anna Kornikova (sp?) but the intent without any action is not enough for me to say I have done it. Sure it is a stupid defense to a stupid prosecution. The Federal Government has the legal tools to deal with this and they have already dealt with it through revocation of the Pilots' Certificates.

All this defense did is to preserve the case for appeal.

~~~^~~~

 

[Dog Driver]

All this defense did is to preserve the case for appeal.

~~~^~~~

I think I will agree with you on that one.

I did learn / re-learn something though .....

Seems I might have miss-assumed that local government has no right here ....

91.17


(1) On request of a law enforcement officer, submit to a test to indicate the percentage by weight of alcohol in the blood, when—

(i) The law enforcement officer is authorized under State or local law to conduct the test or to have the test conducted; and

(ii) The law enforcement officer is requesting submission to the test to investigate a suspected violation of State or local law governing the same or substantially similar conduct prohibited by paragraph (a)(1), (a)(2), or (a)(4) of this section.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Something is just not right here ....... Just can't put my finger on it.

 

[RP 04]

They are out over $100,000.00 in defense costs, out of their own pockets.

HA HA

 

[redflyer65]

I realize they lose their income by losing the certificate, but there is no jail time/fine in violating an FAR. Just like with the FCC, you can get a tranmitter and broadcast 24/7 on aviation frequencies, and all they can do is come and take your transmitter.

Or better yet, those cases when the FAA has found someone (Part 91) without a license, what do you think they do to them? They tell them not to do it again. There's nothing to take!That's my point.

 

[FedEx1]

Even ALPA will tell you that you have to submit to testing to local law enforcement. They had no choice there.

What really bothers me, though, and no one has really said it... Their big defense was that they couldn't be guilty, they weren't actually in control on the flight or in charge of the aircraft. This should bother every pilot. When you put your signature on that logbook and take the plane, YOU are the CAPTAIN. Ok, I realize if some tug driver hits the side, the captain isn't going to get it for that. But sheesh, guys, you intended to fly, gimme a break.

I realize they were scraping the bottom of the barrel to get out of this. But as a professional, I am offended they tried to drag all airline pilots, and their authroity, down with them.

I hate the TSA, too. But that guy with the high school education has all the power. Just be polite, do what they ask, and deal with it later. If you saw the video, the captain wasn't exactly.... professional... going thru security.

 

[castle bravo]

After the revocation of their Certificates for proper cause, ALPA took the position that they were no longer pilots and the union could not defend them in this civil matter.

They are out over $100,000.00 in defense costs, out of their own pockets.

That's just great. ALPA has no trouble taking 1.95% of their gross reportable income for their career, but when the guys need help they are just left out to dry. Makes me real happy about sending in my dues check every month.

A couple of police officers in my area were recently convicted on felony drug dealing charges. Even though these guys were completely wrong, hoardes of fellow cops, (many from distant jurisdictions) lined the courthouse and made public appearances in defense of thier fallen buddies. Oh, and their union did not consider these guys to be "ex-cops" before, during or after the trial.

Taking a few lessons from our public servants would be advantageous to us as a whole, from time to time.

 

[Wasted]

But that's just like pilots. Most pilots won't stand up for anybody else. As long as a pilot has his pension, job, boat, house, dog, whatever, most pilots don't give a rat's arse about what happens to another pilot. That is why management will always win over pilots. Pilots won't stand up for any other pilot because of what it may cost them or how it might look. Pilots should really take a look at how other union folks behave and try to learn something. What those two guys did was wrong, but no matter what, those guys were one of us, and that blood should have run thicker than water.

 

[warbirdfinder]

Ask the Delta and American pilots who enjoyed $300,000 incomes, who then retired with over $3,000,000.00 how valuable their certificates were.

I am kind of curious, where did you get the $3,000,000.00 figure? No one I know with delta has ever retired with that amount of money

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am kind of curious, where did you get the $3,000,000.00 figure? No one I know with delta has ever retired with that amount of money

A friend who hired in when he was in his middle twenties in the late 1940's retired off the L1011 in the late 80's after a rotation in the training department and management went out with considerably more than that. He was one of those lucky few who only spent a few months in the right seat at Delta, back when Delta was a whole lot smaller than ASA was in 2000.

Heck we had a handful of lowly ASA pilots who invested 401K funds in ASA stock prior to the Delta purchase that went out with over a million in their 401K and I'm aiming at well over a million by saving a big chunk of my income - and of course we have no retirement, just what we save.

Point was, your Certificate is valuable, protect it.

 

[FlyChicaga]

But that's just like pilots. Most pilots won't stand up for anybody else. As long as a pilot has his pension, job, boat, house, dog, whatever, most pilots don't give a rat's arse about what happens to another pilot. That is why management will always win over pilots. Pilots won't stand up for any other pilot because of what it may cost them or how it might look. Pilots should really take a look at how other union folks behave and try to learn something. What those two guys did was wrong, but no matter what, those guys were one of us, and that blood should have run thicker than water.

I completely agree on the basis of brotherhood (something which this industry is seriously lacking). But, I also hold the opinion that they would not have put themselves in this position, as well as all of us in an uncomfortable position now, if they were thinking about brotherhood. They knowingly took control of an aircraft and were prepared to fly under the influence, disregarding all the rules associated with it. They broke the company rules. They broke the FAA rules. They broke state and federal laws for operating under the influence. The fact is, it was selfish. They cared about themselves at that point.

I don't think we as pilots should have hung them out to dry. You know you wouldn't hang your brother if he screwed up; you'd help him realize his lack of judgement and find a way to pick up the pieces. Even so, they need to accept the consequences of their actions. And accept the fact that they hurt us all by what they did.

 

[Boeingman]

I wonder if anyone asked the defense what their plans were after the tug disconnected? Or were they planning on being towed all the way to PHX?

I have zero sympathy for these clowns and I hope they get the max possible punishment. You can save all the pollyanna brotherhood comments in a case like this. There are some people who do not belong amongst the professionals who do their jobs day in and day out with pride and honor.

 

[FN FAL]

dumba$$es(the pilots that is)

cant believe they went to court over this

they knew what they did

Yea, let's do away with the US Constitution...no more of this due process crapolla. Plus, we'll be able to own slaves again and women won't have the right to vote...it's going to be awsome times...when do we start?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

A few observations I have about this thread,

1. The pilots involved were idiots to do what they did.

2. Florida has now set the precident and opened the door for criminal prosecutions related to aircraft operations.

3. Referring to #2...It is now conceivable that a pilot can be charged with vehicular manslaughter for a death resulting from an accident, if it can be shown that he/she broke even the smallest FAR during the flight. (remember we are already seeing this type of thing in Asia.)

4. France has a military!!?? I have seen many many pictures of the German army in Paris, and I have seen many many pictures of the U.S. Army in Paris......I do not remember ever seeing a picture of the French Army in Paris!! (Ok Ok, they did help us out during the revolution....but I think saving them from the Goose stepping crowd.....twice, more than evens the favor bucket out.)

5. Back to the trial, I spent some time in Miami during the trial. Every night on the news they would lead with Floridas prosecution of the uber nasty and evil AWA pilots...complete with live coverage. Then they would gloss over the 14 bloody bullet ridden corpses that Dade county scraped off the street that day......followed by a commercial for some miracle sweeping broom.....then return with a live update of the Michael Jackson trial......followed by a final update on the antichrist pilots and their drunken rampage of terror through the metal detectors with a hot cup of coffee. Florida and Miami have their priorities all out of whack when a couple of drunks and a pedophile(alleged) take precidence over the daily gang/drug violence taking place all over the city.

6. Lose their certificates? Absolutly. Lose their job? Of course. Barred from ever flying 121 again? Yes. Sit in jail for five years with gang/drug crowd? Seems a little over the top to me.

 

[Publishers]

Now if they were allowed to take off and piled it in among all those corpses just how much time should we have given them if they lived. These guys could have taken a plea, served probably 6 months or so and been done with it. Maybe even 30 days and a half way house.

They risked the trial to take a chance on no time and that risk went about as well as their night of drinking followed by aggrevating a TSA guy over coffee. Dumb and dumber.

 

[charterpuke]

Publishers:

They did try to plea bargan. The arrogant judge said no.

 

[castle bravo]

2. Florida has now set the precident and opened the door for criminal prosecutions related to aircraft operations.

3. Referring to #2...It is now conceivable that a pilot can be charged with vehicular manslaughter for a death resulting from an accident, if it can be shown that he/she broke even the smallest FAR


Points 2 and 3 are perhaps the most troubling of this entire case. ALPA should take a strong line on this or it will come back to bite us in the behind in the future.

 

[captkrunch]

Charterpuke is right, a plea agreement was struck between prosecution and defense -- they were gonna serve 14 mos. WTF is up w/ this judge? What a complete waste of tax payer's $. We all know they're guilty, they know they're guilty, they were willing to plead guilty and serve time.

WTF is up w/ ALPA and where is the outrage from other pilots??? You don't abandon your brethern when the chips are down. I don't in any way, manner, shape or form condone what they did. What they did is beyond the pale and sickens me. Nevertheless, they paid their ALPA dues and should have been afforded some legal assistance from ALPA. I personally think they should sue ALPA and get all of their dues paid back. This is totally unacceptable. Think about it. If you're in trouble, it could be you....

 

[Hutcha]

Q: How do you sink a French Submarine??


A: Swim down to it and knock on the door!