Grinstein says Delta will be ok!

[banger]

I really never heard a lot of outrage about the very low rates for the E190, when the bus paid a lot more. The main reason is because you really can't voice your opinions without getting the axe. You have no union to come in and fight for you. Now, I know ALPA hasn't done very well as of late, but with many airlines falling down around them, it is tougher to demand stuff. Your company is doing better than most, but you can't justify good wages (unless you work more than 70 hours) for a potentially lucrative jet. Our situation is absolutely different, since our financial situation is far worse. So, an extra $5 an hour or more will shut your airline down? I guess it will according to DN. Maybe it is not in your low cost plan? Well, your Airbuses pay a lot more, right? How many more seats on that? Will you carry the same amount of people per day (bus gets 3 legs, E190 gets 6)? What is the justification? Our's is that we are in Chap 11. Your's is because you didn't have anyone on it yet and you turned your heads because you didn't have to fly it if you didn't want to. And, Dave Bushey was watching. Our current 100 seater (the 737-200) pays a lot better than your E190, and will continue after another 20% pay cut. (the 737-200s will leave by the end of next year)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General
Your post has many inaccuracies. I can try to point some of them out. You mention not hearing much outrage. Well I'm not sure outrage is a good word for it but I can assure you many of the pilots here were very upset. We had meeting with management and listened to them. For the most part we do trust our management. They told us their plan and it was logical and made sense. They asked for our trust and to give it time. Many times I hear you and others mention the 12 year Capt rate. Well we don't have 12 yr Capt's!! Our Management (who we trust) asked us to give it time, see how the 190 works, and if it works as well as everyone thinks the money will come. Then why even post a 12 year rate you ask? Because to have access to investor income they needed some type of future numbers. I don't think you can accept this answer because I don't think you can understand trusting Management and I accept that.
As far as selling the "unborn" jetBlue pilots away, well Management has said nobody will be forced on the 190. And so far the bids for the 190 have gone very senior. Suprisingly new hire classes are filling up about evenly for volunteers in each type.
General, I'm a furloughed DAL guy. I see the greenslipping, I see the Contract pilots, I read the furloughees complaining about how DALPA sold them down the drain. I've flown with both pilot groups and they are great guys, Sorta bothers me when either group bashes the other.
You complaining about the jetBlue pilots 190 wages is the same about me complaining to you about going into BK. Its a waste of time.

 

[DL_Infidel]

As far as overtime, yes--some take it---bit that actually saves the airline money. Inverse assignments cost more than greenslips---and also allows pilots who want to fly do it, instead of getting a guy on his last leg to do the trip. Hey, the trip will be flying regardless, and greenslips cost less. Would I like to bring back all of the furloughs? Yes. Why are they recalling only 10 a month on average? Probably because they don't want to furlough anyone twice when we park some 737-200s coming up here. Would you like to give up your intermediate job to come back and then go out again? You would? And those "contract pilots" are there because we allowed them only 24 hours notice to declare retirement. Can an airline prepare for that anyway? Nope. A guy could put in his papers and then take them out---resulting in large bids without retiring pilots. If we could give 120 days notice, that may allow the company time to put out an accurate bid. But, our contract gave that much flexibility---24 hours notice to retire. 18 777 Captains (out of 50 or so) retired on Sept 1st. We would have to cancel 30% of our lucrative 777 flights. That is why there is that program. Now that the retirements have pretty much stopped, the training department can get ramped up. Also, a lot of the retiring pilots were senior Line Check Airman, and you should know it takes awhile to get them trained and approved by the FAA. It is hard to train new pilots or recalled pilots when everyone else is in training to replace the leaving LCA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

The PRP program was a mistake from the get-go. Instead of the stop-gap measure it was intended to be, the company has been to using it to staff the airline which has affected this pilot group negatively (namely seat progression and recalls). I suggested to our MEC that we use something similar to SWA's lance capt. program...but that was shot down. "It will never work," was the response I got. Now look where we are. We're in Ch. 11 with the PRP program in place. Wanna bet what the company will ask the judge for? Is it a far stretch for the judge to grant an extension past Dec. and allow the company to furlough?

The problem with DALPA is that they (sorry...we) keep enabling an inept group by giving them relief from their own idiotic mistakes. Personally, I'm willing to ground 777s and 767s. DL has had ample time to prepare for these early retirements. How? When the company first uttered the word "bankruptcy" last year, they could have planned for a minimum of 1,000 guys to leave. But that would have taken some aggresive and proactive managing which has been scarce at Ft. Widget for many years. You can't say the "b" word and expect those over 50 with 20 years to hang around.

As far as Green Slips go...again, it's hurting the guys on the street (I used to be one of them). You're right though, it helps the company. That's why I signed up for this gig...to help the company, to try and save it from itself by giving it more of my time and more of my money.

 

[fam62c]

100 seaters at DAL Mainline.

Who knows General, but I wouldn't believe what any Chief Pilots says because they don't know anything and that's for sure. Your company is going to be run by bankruptcy consultants and attorneys for the forseeable future and I'm guessing that they haven't gone out of their way to brief the CP's. Maybe you will get offered EMB 190's by the company.....but they will come with a lot of strings attached. For starters, I'll bet that ALL Delta FO's in any airplane will need to be paid less than the EMB-190 CA's in equivalent year group. Show me any major where the FO's are paid more than the CA's in the same year group. EMB 190's are "big" planes that belong at the majors so I don't see any separate division system that keeps pay low for only that fleet. It will be treated just like a 737 or an MD-80, except of course with JetBlue's rates so you can be competitive in the industry. So take a look at what a 9 year JetBlue 190 CA will get paid and that's where you will be if you can hold the left seat in that plane. If not you will be making less than that rate as a widebody FO or whatever it is that you do. Still want the 100 seaters? Maybe this is what the airlines wanted all along, in bankruptcy they will give you what you wanted and make the 100 seaters a mainline piece of equipment and use the pilot group's own logic against them to save a bundle on FO pay scales for the widebodies.

Why do you want to stay at Delta anyway General? You will be working for a lot less with gutted work rules and benefits and no DB plan. Why do you want to fly big planes for so little and lower the bar? Wouldn't it be better to just follow the "natural progression" and try to work for a solvent airline like UPS or Fedex that pays fairly for big equipment? Are you just too lazy to give up your 9 years, vacation, nice schedules and domicile? You're going to undercut other carriers pay scales on big planes because you don't want to interview and start at the bottom somewhere else? Shame on you

Sorry General, I just couldn't resist. I honestly wish it was 1999 again and there was a bright future for all pilots instead of fear, infighting and continually lowered expectations. When I was younger I thought I would be a major airline CA someday for sure and live the high-lifestyle that position allowed. Nowdays I'm just hoping to hold on to my small jet CA career through this mess and I've learned to be thankful for what I have. Lots of people have it a lot worse. Instead of always looking up and never being satisifed because others have more; I've learned to look down and realize that I actually have it pretty good compared to many other people..I hope I can keep what I have. You can fall a long way, even from a little mountain.

 

[Sky Cowboy]

I'd like to believe Mr. Grinstein when he says Delta will survive. I want to believe Mr. Grinstein. However, his promise made to Delta employees regarding wage and work rule concessions was marketed under the mantra "Do it once. Do it right." Two days before filing Chapter 11 he came back to the pilots asking for another round. Mr. Grinstein was also quoted as saying he would not be the CEO who took Delta into Bankruptcy. September 14, 2005 is a day that will live in infamy in Delta history. In light of his statements and track record, I would say that his credibility ranks right up there with the likes of Baghdad Bob.

 

[banned username 1]

First of all and lastly, it's gonna be OK. Look at history. Look at UAL of late. DL and NWA unfortunately have to go through the same grieving process that everybody else in BK has gone through. How fast you go through all of the steps and accept BOHICA, the faster you guys can move on.

It's too bad that it has to happen to anybody, but it has. For those who have to live it, don't listen to all the self-styled "experts" here on this Board, it will only serve to depress and upset you. Most have nothing more to offer than an opinion, and we all know what those are like- and what they're worth, don't we.

Right now, do what you know how to do best, and don't let it consume you. Changes unfortunately are coming for you too and how you deal with change will seperate the victims from the survivors. Decide what you want to be.

Keep your eyes forward and your chins up. It will be OK.

Good luck to you all.

UAL78

 

[General Lee]

General
Your post has many inaccuracies. I can try to point some of them out. You mention not hearing much outrage. Well I'm not sure outrage is a good word for it but I can assure you many of the pilots here were very upset. We had meeting with management and listened to them. For the most part we do trust our management. They told us their plan and it was logical and made sense. They asked for our trust and to give it time. Many times I hear you and others mention the 12 year Capt rate. Well we don't have 12 yr Capt's!! Our Management (who we trust) asked us to give it time, see how the 190 works, and if it works as well as everyone thinks the money will come. Then why even post a 12 year rate you ask? Because to have access to investor income they needed some type of future numbers. I don't think you can accept this answer because I don't think you can understand trusting Management and I accept that.
As far as selling the "unborn" jetBlue pilots away, well Management has said nobody will be forced on the 190. And so far the bids for the 190 have gone very senior. Suprisingly new hire classes are filling up about evenly for volunteers in each type.
General, I'm a furloughed DAL guy. I see the greenslipping, I see the Contract pilots, I read the furloughees complaining about how DALPA sold them down the drain. I've flown with both pilot groups and they are great guys, Sorta bothers me when either group bashes the other.
You complaining about the jetBlue pilots 190 wages is the same about me complaining to you about going into BK. Its a waste of time.

Sorry to hear you were furloughed at DL. As far as what went on at JB within the ranks, well, it wasn't broadcasted onver Flightinfo or any other website I know of. All we saw was the pi$$poor rates and that was it, very little reaction. As far as people getting to choose which plane, well, that is good. And, as far as the greenslipping and PRPs, well, you should know that with a 24 hour retirement notice, people tend to bail quickly without much notice. What is Delta to do? Just cancel 50 flights for the first few days of each month after 200 pilots suddenly retire? We would have had to park every widebody. The PRP program, though not something I want around any longer than anyone else, saved this airline by allowing flights to continue while we weeded out Captains with lump sums. That is what you NEED to have when the contract allows 24 hour notice on retirements. Now that they have subsided, along with the pensions, there should be more consistancy with flights and knowing with LCA will stay to give IOE's etc...

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

GL,

The PRP program was a mistake from the get-go. Instead of the stop-gap measure it was intended to be, the company has been to using it to staff the airline which has affected this pilot group negatively (namely seat progression and recalls). I suggested to our MEC that we use something similar to SWA's lance capt. program...but that was shot down. "It will never work," was the response I got. Now look where we are. We're in Ch. 11 with the PRP program in place. Wanna bet what the company will ask the judge for? Is it a far stretch for the judge to grant an extension past Dec. and allow the company to furlough?

The problem with DALPA is that they (sorry...we) keep enabling an inept group by giving them relief from their own idiotic mistakes. Personally, I'm willing to ground 777s and 767s. DL has had ample time to prepare for these early retirements. How? When the company first uttered the word "bankruptcy" last year, they could have planned for a minimum of 1,000 guys to leave. But that would have taken some aggresive and proactive managing which has been scarce at Ft. Widget for many years. You can't say the "b" word and expect those over 50 with 20 years to hang around.

As far as Green Slips go...again, it's hurting the guys on the street (I used to be one of them). You're right though, it helps the company. That's why I signed up for this gig...to help the company, to try and save it from itself by giving it more of my time and more of my money.

As I stated above, I don't like the PRP program, and I haven't done any greenslipping. Why? Because I need all the time at home I can get to stay informed on Flightinfo...... As far as the PRPs go, we would have had to park fleets without them, thanks to the 24 hour notice given to retire. That really is ridiculous when you have to run a business with a schedule to keep. People who buy tickets expect to leave at a certain time and a certain date, and those PRPs allowed the flights to continue. If you want to blame someone, blame ALPA. They put it in the contract, along with our retirement based off of the Gatt rate, which changes from month to month. Senior guys rode the Gatt rate train and didn't give the company enough notice to put ut bids ahead of time. Even LCA were retiring at an alarming rate. I don't blame them for leaving with the $$$$$$$, but the company had to try to keep those planes going to keep revenue coming in to pay for fuel. Greenslips also helped keep some of those planes in the air. Not all of the retiring pilots were allowed to come back as PRPs---only widebody Captains. So, retiring MD88 and 738 Captains left open trips. Who was supposed to pick them up when you only had 24 hours notice? Greenslips, which were cheaper than inverse assignments.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Who knows General, but I wouldn't believe what any Chief Pilots says because they don't know anything and that's for sure. Your company is going to be run by bankruptcy consultants and attorneys for the forseeable future and I'm guessing that they haven't gone out of their way to brief the CP's. Maybe you will get offered EMB 190's by the company.....but they will come with a lot of strings attached. For starters, I'll bet that ALL Delta FO's in any airplane will need to be paid less than the EMB-190 CA's in equivalent year group. Show me any major where the FO's are paid more than the CA's in the same year group. EMB 190's are "big" planes that belong at the majors so I don't see any separate division system that keeps pay low for only that fleet. It will be treated just like a 737 or an MD-80, except of course with JetBlue's rates so you can be competitive in the industry. So take a look at what a 9 year JetBlue 190 CA will get paid and that's where you will be if you can hold the left seat in that plane. If not you will be making less than that rate as a widebody FO or whatever it is that you do. Still want the 100 seaters? Maybe this is what the airlines wanted all along, in bankruptcy they will give you what you wanted and make the 100 seaters a mainline piece of equipment and use the pilot group's own logic against them to save a bundle on FO pay scales for the widebodies.

Why do you want to stay at Delta anyway General? You will be working for a lot less with gutted work rules and benefits and no DB plan. Why do you want to fly big planes for so little and lower the bar? Wouldn't it be better to just follow the "natural progression" and try to work for a solvent airline like UPS or Fedex that pays fairly for big equipment? Are you just too lazy to give up your 9 years, vacation, nice schedules and domicile? You're going to undercut other carriers pay scales on big planes because you don't want to interview and start at the bottom somewhere else? Shame on you

Sorry General, I just couldn't resist. I honestly wish it was 1999 again and there was a bright future for all pilots instead of fear, infighting and continually lowered expectations. When I was younger I thought I would be a major airline CA someday for sure and live the high-lifestyle that position allowed. Nowdays I'm just hoping to hold on to my small jet CA career through this mess and I've learned to be thankful for what I have. Lots of people have it a lot worse. Instead of always looking up and never being satisifed because others have more; I've learned to look down and realize that I actually have it pretty good compared to many other people..I hope I can keep what I have. You can fall a long way, even from a little mountain.

Will we get 100 seaters like the E190s? I don't know. The AJC paper said GE was ready to finance Delta for "larger" regional jets. Most of the other DCI carrier (SkyWest, Chautaqua, Mesa) can afford their own financing. That leaves Comair. Well, from what I have been hearing they will go down pay cut lane with us and maybe get sold off when they have competitive rates with Mesa. That leaves mainline for these "larger" regional jets. Then, the Assistant Chief in ATL told me that management will get these jets for mainline. As far as the rates go, I have no clue. Maybe Jetblue rates.He said he thought they would be the E190 since they were happy so far with CHQ's E170s. Read into it all you want. Do we want the 100 seaters at DL? Yes, they will be replacing the 737-200s. We want to keep as many mainline jobs as possible. Will I fly them? Probably not, since I will be bidding ATL 767-400 (765) FO on this next bid and plan to be doing a lot of Hawaii trips in the near future. I can hold Captain on the MD88 currently, but any parkings of other planes would probably displace me from that. Why do I want to stay? I am 40, and I have some time to recover. If we merge with NW or CAL, I can do well there too. Will I have a DB plan? No. I am doing other things on the side to make my own retirement, and my wife's family is rich.

I hope I can keep what I have too because I really enjoy my job. I feel very fortunate to be here still, and I believe something good will happen eventually, through a merger or stand alone. It will be interesting indeed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'd like to believe Mr. Grinstein when he says Delta will survive. I want to believe Mr. Grinstein. However, his promise made to Delta employees regarding wage and work rule concessions was marketed under the mantra "Do it once. Do it right." Two days before filing Chapter 11 he came back to the pilots asking for another round. Mr. Grinstein was also quoted as saying he would not be the CEO who took Delta into Bankruptcy. September 14, 2005 is a day that will live in infamy in Delta history. In light of his statements and track record, I would say that his credibility ranks right up there with the likes of Baghdad Bob.

It is hard to keep promises like that when fuel prices sky rocket. Sure, they could have rasied the fares---I along with everyone else has been yelling that at top volume---but what about during the slow Fall? Should we cancel flights that aren't half full? What do you do? As far as Grinstein coming back for another round, I think he was trying to get a pre-packaged bankruptcy going. He wants to get this over with quickly so he can retire. He also wants to avoid too many $1 million lawyer fee days---United has spent $1 million a day on attornies and they have been in there 3 years. Remember, he has stated no performance or retention bonuses for anyone in management for this year. That is better than the United CEO and his cronies. Regardless, all of this will end with a merger anyway---so buckle up and get ready to be shipped to MSP.................or DTW.....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[grinder]

General,

You have spent the last couple thousand posts polishing a floater turd that has finally spiraled to the bottom. There is nothing to defend anymore. Let's see what happens, but FO pay at JBLU rates + 1$ and UAL narrow body work rules isn't worth doing. Hell, it wouldn't be worth it if they threw in a porn star FA on every leg. ALPA has finally screwed the pooch completey. I'm pissed at what's happened. WTF?

Grinder.

Coming up on 4 yrs. now as a FM1 bubba and glad I left the bidness.

 

[bafanguy]

Well, this flies in the face of what GG said in a memo to retirees yesterday. Can the picture have changed so radically in 24 hours ? Standby for an avalanche of innuendo, supposition, half-truths, incomplete or misinterpreted facts, and total BS.

Well, I stand corrected. They did, in fact, ask the BK court to stop what I'm guessing is the non-qualified part of the pension payments ( can't tell for sure from the fuzzy terminology used in the paper ). "qualified" when The judge appears willing, if not eager, to agree. Can the "qualified" part be far behind ?

I do, however, stand by the "...innuendo, supposition, half-truths, incomplete or misinterpreted facts, and total BS..." part above. Let the games begin, Boys and Girls !!!

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . ALPA has finally screwed the pooch completey. I'm pissed at what's happened. WTF?

. . .<snip>. . .

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Once again I'll ask the question: "How can ALPA keep an airline(s) from going down the toilet??"
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[IB6 UB9]

WTF has ALPA done for any of you? ALPA is a business with one purpose, to make money, YOUR MONEY. You guys preaching about ALPA this and ALPO that, and your careers going down the toilet, just like mine did a few years ago, with my third ALPA carrier. I am amused at even recently the NWA guys that give me the icy look and when I jumpseat, asking me "when are you going to organize?" and "when is ALPA coming on the property?" Never. One of our guys was denied again last week. Why don't you all strike to keep your wages...simply walk off the job until the company agrees to keep you on board for what you are making now. Why not? Because you have no unity. The sooner you all realize that ALPA gives you zero protection...nadda...the better off you will all be. Take that % that you pay DW every month and put it in the bank, whatever. Wiping your ash with it every morning would put it to better use. ALPA was great when the airlines are printing money, they negotiated these huge contracts because the airline could affored to pay, but now that the shat has hit the fan, what now. What are you paying dues for? Baffles me. General, let's say Delta offered JB -$10, or lower, with a 50 hour guarantee...then what? What are you going to do? Strike? I think not. I think you will somehow defend your new pathetic wages with your latest spin on why. Two good things may come of that, (1) I can now childishly rip on you for not caring and (2) some of your profound Delta arrogance may be removed from this board (although I doubt it) We are employees in a countrywith bancruptcy laws that protect the company so well that the employees will have to settle for whatever they get, period. You thinking ALPA can save you, that's funny. You will make whatever your airline can afford to pay you. No more, no less. The airline could pay us in wooden nickles after filing Ch.11. General, I hope to hear you "raising the bar" again in 6 months after your wage has been cut by 60%. It's coming pal. At least you have someone to blame...those pesky JB pilots who didn't care! What a fukn joke.

 

[klhoard]

WTF has ALPA done for any of you? ALPA is a business with one purpose, to make money, YOUR MONEY. You guys preaching about ALPA this and ALPO that, and your careers going down the toilet, just like mine did a few years ago, with my third ALPA carrier. I am amused at even recently the NWA guys that give me the icy look and when I jumpseat, asking me "when are you going to organize?" and "when is ALPA coming on the property?" Never. One of our guys was denied again last week. Why don't you all strike to keep your wages...simply walk off the job until the company agrees to keep you on board for what you are making now. Why not? Because you have no unity. The sooner you all realize that ALPA gives you zero protection...nadda...the better off you will all be. Take that % that you pay DW every month and put it in the bank, whatever. Wiping your ash with it every morning would put it to better use. ALPA was great when the airlines are printing money, they negotiated these huge contracts because the airline could affored to pay, but now that the shat has hit the fan, what now. What are you paying dues for? Baffles me. General, let's say Delta offered JB -$10, or lower, with a 50 hour guarantee...then what? What are you going to do? Strike? I think not. I think you will somehow defend your new pathetic wages with your latest spin on why. Two good things may come of that, (1) I can now childishly rip on you for not caring and (2) some of your profound Delta arrogance may be removed from this board (although I doubt it) We are employees in a countrywith bancruptcy laws that protect the company so well that the employees will have to settle for whatever they get, period. You thinking ALPA can save you, that's funny. You will make whatever your airline can afford to pay you. No more, no less. The airline could pay us in wooden nickles after filing Ch.11. General, I hope to hear you "raising the bar" again in 6 months after your wage has been cut by 60%. It's coming pal. At least you have someone to blame...those pesky JB pilots who didn't care! What a fukn joke.

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When the JB boat starts taking on water you'll wish you had a (real) contract. . .
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Enjoy the ride while it lasts. . . .
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[FoxHunter]

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When the JB boat starts taking on water you'll wish you had a (real) contract. . .
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Enjoy the ride while it lasts. . . .
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Why??