Grinstein says Delta will be ok!

[General Lee]

Oh no General, not going to be that easy for you. You now have an opportunity to "set the standard, do the right thing and raise the bar". You and DALPA have the opportunity to raise pay for all the people on the 170-195, the pilots at Comair,heck for all the regionals out there, so let see that bravado of yours in action!

As for not caring, the DAL boys still picking up over time, still allowing "contractors" on the property while people are on furlough? Yeah, I thought so!

As for what you do with your sister, I really do not care, but get it over with, it is getting really old!

Most of what you say is pure BS---and you know it. I think we will try to get Jetblue +$1, that should be really easy thanks to the Jetblue bus pilots who don't care. I think we could do that. Who couldn't? Well, you guys.

As far as overtime, yes--some take it---bit that actually saves the airline money. Inverse assignments cost more than greenslips---and also allows pilots who want to fly do it, instead of getting a guy on his last leg to do the trip. Hey, the trip will be flying regardless, and greenslips cost less. Would I like to bring back all of the furloughs? Yes. Why are they recalling only 10 a month on average? Probably because they don't want to furlough anyone twice when we park some 737-200s coming up here. Would you like to give up your intermediate job to come back and then go out again? You would? And those "contract pilots" are there because we allowed them only 24 hours notice to declare retirement. Can an airline prepare for that anyway? Nope. A guy could put in his papers and then take them out---resulting in large bids without retiring pilots. If we could give 120 days notice, that may allow the company time to put out an accurate bid. But, our contract gave that much flexibility---24 hours notice to retire. 18 777 Captains (out of 50 or so) retired on Sept 1st. We would have to cancel 30% of our lucrative 777 flights. That is why there is that program. Now that the retirements have pretty much stopped, the training department can get ramped up. Also, a lot of the retiring pilots were senior Line Check Airman, and you should know it takes awhile to get them trained and approved by the FAA. It is hard to train new pilots or recalled pilots when everyone else is in training to replace the leaving LCA.

And I use the sister analogy because it makes a point----you guys want to change a lot of rules that have been around forever. Most of them benefit you only, and in reality you don't see how changing them could hurt you. If you are Superman and can fly a NYC-LGB turn with bad weather on return or along the route---then good for you. Most cannot. How about you petition to change the INTL rules also----I can't wait for a two pilot flight from JFK to SVO (Moscow).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Boeingman,


Maybe you didn't realize this, but we have retired 2500 pilots in 15 months. Yes, that was 2500 Captains, mostly senior Captains. The management pilot I talked to today in ATL told me that we have the correct amount of pilots now even with those airplane retirements. (all 762, 732, and 733 retirements) That is how short we are. We also may add new 100 seat aircraft financed from GE, according to the AJC paper. And, then he said we will make up the slack with a huge INTL push---bringing the INTL revenue up to 40% from 22% of our total revenue. He said that will take more pilots. They also decreased the turn times in ATL to 45 minutes for the narrowbody aircraft, which is making up for a lot of those planes that could be parked.

Is Simplifares working? Well, with $70 gas, probably not. We just brought in one of your ex revenue guys that worked wonders with Alitalia (I guess he did good work there too?) and he is the one who just chopped a bunch of CVG flights. He is working on the revenue side of the equation. Better late than never. The rest of the transformation plan is huge. We chopped DFW, created operation clockwork that does well in good wx, and did a host of other things. It would have worked with lower oil prices. We are staying with the plan, and building on it----which will work with lower costs. Unfortunately, that means pay cuts in the mean time.

I am glad you think we could be liquidated. What do you guys own? Anything? Anything? Part of Expressjet? Yes, that's it. High gas may get you too. Welcome to Skyteam!

Competitve advantage is what every Major CEO will be saying shortly. And, I too am watching this industry fall down. It will end up with less airlines, more consolidation, and smaller pay checks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[banger]

Most of what you say is pure BS---and you know it. I think we will try to get Jetblue +$1, that should be really easy thanks to the Jetblue bus pilots who don't care. I think we could do that. Who couldn't? Well, you guys.
Bye Bye--General Lee

whoa General your losing me here.
You argue that jetBlue pilots who have no union and no input to the pay scales Management sets are at fault for the EMB-190 pay rate. Then you say DAL guys who are unionized can only get Jetblue+$1. I don't get it. You guys should be "raising the bar" and getting super high pay for those 100 seaters right?

 

[General Lee]

whoa General your losing me here.
You argue that jetBlue pilots who have no union and no input to the pay scales Management sets are at fault for the EMB-190 pay rate. Then you say DAL guys who are unionized can only get Jetblue+$1. I don't get it. You guys should be "raising the bar" and getting super high pay for those 100 seaters right?

I really never heard a lot of outrage about the very low rates for the E190, when the bus paid a lot more. The main reason is because you really can't voice your opinions without getting the axe. You have no union to come in and fight for you. Now, I know ALPA hasn't done very well as of late, but with many airlines falling down around them, it is tougher to demand stuff. Your company is doing better than most, but you can't justify good wages (unless you work more than 70 hours) for a potentially lucrative jet. Our situation is absolutely different, since our financial situation is far worse. So, an extra $5 an hour or more will shut your airline down? I guess it will according to DN. Maybe it is not in your low cost plan? Well, your Airbuses pay a lot more, right? How many more seats on that? Will you carry the same amount of people per day (bus gets 3 legs, E190 gets 6)? What is the justification? Our's is that we are in Chap 11. Your's is because you didn't have anyone on it yet and you turned your heads because you didn't have to fly it if you didn't want to. And, Dave Bushey was watching. Our current 100 seater (the 737-200) pays a lot better than your E190, and will continue after another 20% pay cut. (the 737-200s will leave by the end of next year) Your bar will lower our bar in the future.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sandman2122]

That's all you Delta guys care about, is the PAY..........priceless.

 

[banger]

I really never heard a lot of outrage about the very low rates for the E190, when the bus paid a lot more. The main reason is because you really can't voice your opinions without getting the axe. You have no union to come in and fight for you. Now, I know ALPA hasn't done very well as of late, but with many airlines falling down around them, it is tougher to demand stuff. Your company is doing better than most, but you can't justify good wages (unless you work more than 70 hours) for a potentially lucrative jet. Our situation is absolutely different, since our financial situation is far worse. So, an extra $5 an hour or more will shut your airline down? I guess it will according to DN. Maybe it is not in your low cost plan? Well, your Airbuses pay a lot more, right? How many more seats on that? Will you carry the same amount of people per day (bus gets 3 legs, E190 gets 6)? What is the justification? Our's is that we are in Chap 11. Your's is because you didn't have anyone on it yet and you turned your heads because you didn't have to fly it if you didn't want to. And, Dave Bushey was watching. Our current 100 seater (the 737-200) pays a lot better than your E190, and will continue after another 20% pay cut. (the 737-200s will leave by the end of next year)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General
Your post has many inaccuracies. I can try to point some of them out. You mention not hearing much outrage. Well I'm not sure outrage is a good word for it but I can assure you many of the pilots here were very upset. We had meeting with management and listened to them. For the most part we do trust our management. They told us their plan and it was logical and made sense. They asked for our trust and to give it time. Many times I hear you and others mention the 12 year Capt rate. Well we don't have 12 yr Capt's!! Our Management (who we trust) asked us to give it time, see how the 190 works, and if it works as well as everyone thinks the money will come. Then why even post a 12 year rate you ask? Because to have access to investor income they needed some type of future numbers. I don't think you can accept this answer because I don't think you can understand trusting Management and I accept that.
As far as selling the "unborn" jetBlue pilots away, well Management has said nobody will be forced on the 190. And so far the bids for the 190 have gone very senior. Suprisingly new hire classes are filling up about evenly for volunteers in each type.
General, I'm a furloughed DAL guy. I see the greenslipping, I see the Contract pilots, I read the furloughees complaining about how DALPA sold them down the drain. I've flown with both pilot groups and they are great guys, Sorta bothers me when either group bashes the other.
You complaining about the jetBlue pilots 190 wages is the same about me complaining to you about going into BK. Its a waste of time.

 

[DL_Infidel]

As far as overtime, yes--some take it---bit that actually saves the airline money. Inverse assignments cost more than greenslips---and also allows pilots who want to fly do it, instead of getting a guy on his last leg to do the trip. Hey, the trip will be flying regardless, and greenslips cost less. Would I like to bring back all of the furloughs? Yes. Why are they recalling only 10 a month on average? Probably because they don't want to furlough anyone twice when we park some 737-200s coming up here. Would you like to give up your intermediate job to come back and then go out again? You would? And those "contract pilots" are there because we allowed them only 24 hours notice to declare retirement. Can an airline prepare for that anyway? Nope. A guy could put in his papers and then take them out---resulting in large bids without retiring pilots. If we could give 120 days notice, that may allow the company time to put out an accurate bid. But, our contract gave that much flexibility---24 hours notice to retire. 18 777 Captains (out of 50 or so) retired on Sept 1st. We would have to cancel 30% of our lucrative 777 flights. That is why there is that program. Now that the retirements have pretty much stopped, the training department can get ramped up. Also, a lot of the retiring pilots were senior Line Check Airman, and you should know it takes awhile to get them trained and approved by the FAA. It is hard to train new pilots or recalled pilots when everyone else is in training to replace the leaving LCA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

The PRP program was a mistake from the get-go. Instead of the stop-gap measure it was intended to be, the company has been to using it to staff the airline which has affected this pilot group negatively (namely seat progression and recalls). I suggested to our MEC that we use something similar to SWA's lance capt. program...but that was shot down. "It will never work," was the response I got. Now look where we are. We're in Ch. 11 with the PRP program in place. Wanna bet what the company will ask the judge for? Is it a far stretch for the judge to grant an extension past Dec. and allow the company to furlough?

The problem with DALPA is that they (sorry...we) keep enabling an inept group by giving them relief from their own idiotic mistakes. Personally, I'm willing to ground 777s and 767s. DL has had ample time to prepare for these early retirements. How? When the company first uttered the word "bankruptcy" last year, they could have planned for a minimum of 1,000 guys to leave. But that would have taken some aggresive and proactive managing which has been scarce at Ft. Widget for many years. You can't say the "b" word and expect those over 50 with 20 years to hang around.

As far as Green Slips go...again, it's hurting the guys on the street (I used to be one of them). You're right though, it helps the company. That's why I signed up for this gig...to help the company, to try and save it from itself by giving it more of my time and more of my money.

 

[fam62c]

100 seaters at DAL Mainline.

Who knows General, but I wouldn't believe what any Chief Pilots says because they don't know anything and that's for sure. Your company is going to be run by bankruptcy consultants and attorneys for the forseeable future and I'm guessing that they haven't gone out of their way to brief the CP's. Maybe you will get offered EMB 190's by the company.....but they will come with a lot of strings attached. For starters, I'll bet that ALL Delta FO's in any airplane will need to be paid less than the EMB-190 CA's in equivalent year group. Show me any major where the FO's are paid more than the CA's in the same year group. EMB 190's are "big" planes that belong at the majors so I don't see any separate division system that keeps pay low for only that fleet. It will be treated just like a 737 or an MD-80, except of course with JetBlue's rates so you can be competitive in the industry. So take a look at what a 9 year JetBlue 190 CA will get paid and that's where you will be if you can hold the left seat in that plane. If not you will be making less than that rate as a widebody FO or whatever it is that you do. Still want the 100 seaters? Maybe this is what the airlines wanted all along, in bankruptcy they will give you what you wanted and make the 100 seaters a mainline piece of equipment and use the pilot group's own logic against them to save a bundle on FO pay scales for the widebodies.

Why do you want to stay at Delta anyway General? You will be working for a lot less with gutted work rules and benefits and no DB plan. Why do you want to fly big planes for so little and lower the bar? Wouldn't it be better to just follow the "natural progression" and try to work for a solvent airline like UPS or Fedex that pays fairly for big equipment? Are you just too lazy to give up your 9 years, vacation, nice schedules and domicile? You're going to undercut other carriers pay scales on big planes because you don't want to interview and start at the bottom somewhere else? Shame on you

Sorry General, I just couldn't resist. I honestly wish it was 1999 again and there was a bright future for all pilots instead of fear, infighting and continually lowered expectations. When I was younger I thought I would be a major airline CA someday for sure and live the high-lifestyle that position allowed. Nowdays I'm just hoping to hold on to my small jet CA career through this mess and I've learned to be thankful for what I have. Lots of people have it a lot worse. Instead of always looking up and never being satisifed because others have more; I've learned to look down and realize that I actually have it pretty good compared to many other people..I hope I can keep what I have. You can fall a long way, even from a little mountain.

 

[Sky Cowboy]

I'd like to believe Mr. Grinstein when he says Delta will survive. I want to believe Mr. Grinstein. However, his promise made to Delta employees regarding wage and work rule concessions was marketed under the mantra "Do it once. Do it right." Two days before filing Chapter 11 he came back to the pilots asking for another round. Mr. Grinstein was also quoted as saying he would not be the CEO who took Delta into Bankruptcy. September 14, 2005 is a day that will live in infamy in Delta history. In light of his statements and track record, I would say that his credibility ranks right up there with the likes of Baghdad Bob.

 

[banned username 1]

First of all and lastly, it's gonna be OK. Look at history. Look at UAL of late. DL and NWA unfortunately have to go through the same grieving process that everybody else in BK has gone through. How fast you go through all of the steps and accept BOHICA, the faster you guys can move on.

It's too bad that it has to happen to anybody, but it has. For those who have to live it, don't listen to all the self-styled "experts" here on this Board, it will only serve to depress and upset you. Most have nothing more to offer than an opinion, and we all know what those are like- and what they're worth, don't we.

Right now, do what you know how to do best, and don't let it consume you. Changes unfortunately are coming for you too and how you deal with change will seperate the victims from the survivors. Decide what you want to be.

Keep your eyes forward and your chins up. It will be OK.

Good luck to you all.

UAL78