Grinstein says Delta will be ok!

[General Lee]

WTF has ALPA done for any of you? ALPA is a business with one purpose, to make money, YOUR MONEY. You guys preaching about ALPA this and ALPO that, and your careers going down the toilet, just like mine did a few years ago, with my third ALPA carrier. I am amused at even recently the NWA guys that give me the icy look and when I jumpseat, asking me "when are you going to organize?" and "when is ALPA coming on the property?" Never. One of our guys was denied again last week. Why don't you all strike to keep your wages...simply walk off the job until the company agrees to keep you on board for what you are making now. Why not? Because you have no unity. The sooner you all realize that ALPA gives you zero protection...nadda...the better off you will all be. Take that % that you pay DW every month and put it in the bank, whatever. Wiping your ash with it every morning would put it to better use. ALPA was great when the airlines are printing money, they negotiated these huge contracts because the airline could affored to pay, but now that the shat has hit the fan, what now. What are you paying dues for? Baffles me. General, let's say Delta offered JB -$10, or lower, with a 50 hour guarantee...then what? What are you going to do? Strike? I think not. I think you will somehow defend your new pathetic wages with your latest spin on why. Two good things may come of that, (1) I can now childishly rip on you for not caring and (2) some of your profound Delta arrogance may be removed from this board (although I doubt it) We are employees in a countrywith bancruptcy laws that protect the company so well that the employees will have to settle for whatever they get, period. You thinking ALPA can save you, that's funny. You will make whatever your airline can afford to pay you. No more, no less. The airline could pay us in wooden nickles after filing Ch.11. General, I hope to hear you "raising the bar" again in 6 months after your wage has been cut by 60%. It's coming pal. At least you have someone to blame...those pesky JB pilots who didn't care! What a fukn joke.

You don't see us putting down Southwest's pay rates, probably because they are good for 737s. That company does well, and treats their employees well. Your company slapped you in the face with the very low E190 rates, and now everyone will copy. I would jump up and down happy if DL said, "We are going to pay our 737 pilots (or equivalent) Southwest 737 wages." They deserve the high rates over there. Now, instead, in bad times--we go for the lowest rates on a 100 seater---and your airline has them, even though you seem to turn a profit. I wonder what you would have negotiated if you could have done so? As far as our financial picture, there is not much I can do about that now. I will go along for the ride, and maybe end up flying a Delwest 747 someday. There may not be much money in it, but I will be rich on those Bangkok layovers!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bafanguy]

GL,

and I suggested to our MEC that we use something similar to SWA's lance capt. program...but that was shot down. "It will never work," was the response I got.

DL_Infidel,

Delta DID, in fact, have something akin to the "lance captain" thing you mentioned. It was called the "dual pool" and allowed a senior DC8 FO, for example, to hold a second position as a DC9 captain to be called when they ran out of enough people in the DC9 capt category. These type of shortages were dealt with in other ways in more recent contracts.

The program got negotiated away years ago, IIRC, because it slowed seat progression by allowing the company to get by without correctly staffing the DC9 capt category ( not to mention the issue of holding quals in two differents seats on two different airplanes). I can't attack or defend the issue but am merely providing perspective on what the MEC told you. I guess they're all too young to remember.

History lesson over...when the bell rings, go to arthmetic.

 

[Dizel8]

"You don't see us putting down Southwest's pay rates, probably because they are good for 737s. That company does well, and treats their employees well. Your company slapped you in the face with the very low E190 rates, and now everyone will copy."

For the longest period of time, the SWA pilots got grief because of their "low" pay, now that they are near the top, it has stopped.

As for the pay on the 190, jetblue did not copy the USAir MDA pay, so why should DAL copy jetblue?

 

[General Lee]

"You don't see us putting down Southwest's pay rates, probably because they are good for 737s. That company does well, and treats their employees well. Your company slapped you in the face with the very low E190 rates, and now everyone will copy."

For the longest period of time, the SWA pilots got grief because of their "low" pay, now that they are near the top, it has stopped.

As for the pay on the 190, jetblue did not copy the USAir MDA pay, so why should DAL copy jetblue?

Thanks to your management, it is the new benchmark for 100 seaters. It is. And, of course, there was really no vocal opposition from you guys---at least that we could hear, or Dave Bushey could hear.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

Re: Grinstien says Delta will be ok!

Why do you want to stay at Delta anyway General? You will be working for a lot less with gutted work rules and benefits and no DB plan. Why do you want to fly big planes for so little and lower the bar? Wouldn't it be better to just follow the "natural progression" and try to work for a solvent airline like UPS or Fedex that pays fairly for big equipment? Are you just too lazy to give up your 9 years, vacation, nice schedules and domicile? You're going to undercut other carriers pay scales on big planes because you don't want to interview and start at the bottom somewhere else? Shame on you

General Lee must be a lifer.

 

[Dan Roman]

First of all and lastly, it's gonna be OK. Look at history. Look at UAL of late. DL and NWA unfortunately have to go through the same grieving process that everybody else in BK has gone through. How fast you go through all of the steps and accept BOHICA, the faster you guys can move on.

It's too bad that it has to happen to anybody, but it has. For those who have to live it, don't listen to all the self-styled "experts" here on this Board, it will only serve to depress and upset you. Most have nothing more to offer than an opinion, and we all know what those are like- and what they're worth, don't we.

Right now, do what you know how to do best, and don't let it consume you. Changes unfortunately are coming for you too and how you deal with change will seperate the victims from the survivors. Decide what you want to be.

Keep your eyes forward and your chins up. It will be OK.

Good luck to you all.

UAL78

This is some of the best advice here. Like UAL I went through BK with Hawaiian. The fact is, the world keeps turning, you still have plenty of oppurtunity to have a life. Their are things more important in life than your job or how much money you make. People in other lines of work deal with adversity all the time. Your average small business owner deals with more ups and downs than we could dream of, and works a LOT harder. Is it fair what is happening to our careers? NO, but dealing with it rationally is what counts.

 

[ThisistheDream]

I think the post should be called, Grinstien will be Okay, not Delta and the employees

 

[DL_Infidel]

DL_Infidel,

Delta DID, in fact, have something akin to the "lance captain" thing you mentioned. It was called the "dual pool" and allowed a senior DC8 FO, for example, to hold a second position as a DC9 captain to be called when they ran out of enough people in the DC9 capt category. These type of shortages were dealt with in other ways in more recent contracts.

The program got negotiated away years ago, IIRC, because it slowed seat progression by allowing the company to get by without correctly staffing the DC9 capt category ( not to mention the issue of holding quals in two differents seats on two different airplanes). I can't attack or defend the issue but am merely providing perspective on what the MEC told you. I guess they're all too young to remember.

History lesson over...when the bell rings, go to arthmetic.

bafanguy,

I appreciate the history lesson...I am too young to remember as well. Cheers.

 

[Dizel8]

Thanks to your management, it is the new benchmark for 100 seaters. It is. And, of course, there was really no vocal opposition from you guys---at least that we could hear, or Dave Bushey could hear.....

Ahhh, so I suppose our 320 rates are also the new benchmark, wonder why it has not been so at U and UAL? Very curious, is it not?

I am sure there will be much opposition at DALPA, further, I am sure that you will keep us updated on all the talk, all the time and that we shall hear every single little tidbit, is that not so?

You now have the opportunity to right such a wrong, a wrong that you have espoused upon ad naseum. Will you do the right thing, will you right this wrong, will you stand up and fight for the all the little people? Oh, the glorious opportunity you have been given, mon General, to go forth and slay the dragon. Stand up, be counted, you are a Delta Professional!

 

[B6Guy]

Hey General

Hey General, back when the A320 CA rate was $78/hr, were you concerned?? And what did you think when the company just a month or so after 9/11 gave us a raise to $110/hr. Why? Because the A320 was making a profit.

The E190 hasn't flown one single revenue seat-mile yet. Once it has established a strong profit history for JB, I and most of us here at JetBlue have faith that the pay rate will go up.

History shows it happened before, the same management team is here [with the addition of DBushy] so there is reason for us to believe that the rates will go up.

You have beat this subject to death, and have been told over and over again that the pilots did have extensive meetings over the low rates. Yet you continue to ignore this in your rant over the pay rates, Now listen-up: we complained!! If management doesn't raise the rates, we will have to rethink our options. But not now, not with profits so meager or non-exsistant.

We are a young company, and growing rapidly, we need to be lean. We need to help the company through these tough times

You defend the senior Delta captains coming back under contract to fly, to help the company, which slows the recall of furloughed pilots. Which keeps your furloughed pilots with NO PAY. Is this better than low pay for a year or so?? I don't believe we are wrong to defend and have faith in our management.

Come back to the E190 pay at JB in two years. There will be a track record to point at for facts.

 

[General Lee]

Hey General, back when the A320 CA rate was $78/hr, were you concerned?? And what did you think when the company just a month or so after 9/11 gave us a raise to $110/hr. Why? Because the A320 was making a profit.

The E190 hasn't flown one single revenue seat-mile yet. Once it has established a strong profit history for JB, I and most of us here at JetBlue have faith that the pay rate will go up.

History shows it happened before, the same management team is here [with the addition of DBushy] so there is reason for us to believe that the rates will go up.

You have beat this subject to death, and have been told over and over again that the pilots did have extensive meetings over the low rates. Yet you continue to ignore this in your rant over the pay rates, Now listen-up: we complained!! If management doesn't raise the rates, we will have to rethink our options. But not now, not with profits so meager or non-exsistant.

We are a young company, and growing rapidly, we need to be lean. We need to help the company through these tough times

You defend the senior Delta captains coming back under contract to fly, to help the company, which slows the recall of furloughed pilots. Which keeps your furloughed pilots with NO PAY. Is this better than low pay for a year or so?? I don't believe we are wrong to defend and have faith in our management.

Come back to the E190 pay at JB in two years. There will be a track record to point at for facts.

Man alive, don't get mad at me. As far as your E190 pay raise in the future, I hope so. You DESERVE IT. Did you hear that? I said you DESERVE IT. Your company is doing well, like SW, and you deserve to be paid accordingly. The bad problem is that your company set the wage level way down initially, and that will affect many more pilots who are negotiating NOW. Any regional with less than 100 seats will start at your rate, or lower. Anyone getting those E190s in the near future will start at your rates. That is my point. I hope your rates rise up high into the sky....

As far as our retired guys coming back and not bringing back the furloughs fast enough, you seem to not understand the situation. Many of the widebody captains who were giving 24 hours notice to retire were line check airman, or sim guys. They may not have given a month notice, or 6 weeks. They were looking at the GATT rate, which changes each month and can make a huge difference in that lump sum payment. So, what should Delta have done? Put out huge bids on what positions may or may not be there in the future? It was immpossible. So, this program was created to avoid parking huge fleets because 18 777 Captains decided on Aug 31st to go the next day and drop their schedules.... Also, not enough line check guys or sim guys can slow down the recalls---because people on smaller equipment can't move up to larger equipment due to training shortages. It was all because we allowed 24 hours notice to retire. You know I am correct here, and you probably are smart enough to understand this. Believe me, I want all of our furloughs back ASAP.(even Dave Griffen.....)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[banger]

Your company is doing well, like SW, and you deserve to be paid accordingly.

Not true General, even here at JB we are just squeaking by with fuel where it is. A profit this quarter is "touch and go". A larger starting payscale on the 190 would have crushed any possible profit. So quote the General "So, what should JB have done?"

So, what should Delta have done? Put out huge bids on what positions may or may not be there in the future? It was immpossible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So it's OK to hose your young at DAL had to but not JB?

 

[banger]

...... or Dave Bushey could hear.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wrong. You should really stick to arguing what you know.

 

[General Lee]

Your company is doing well, like SW, and you deserve to be paid accordingly.

Not true General, even here at JB we are just squeaking by with fuel where it is. A profit this quarter is "touch and go". A larger starting payscale on the 190 would have crushed any possible profit. So quote the General "So, what should JB have done?"

So, what should Delta have done? Put out huge bids on what positions may or may not be there in the future? It was immpossible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So it's OK to hose your young at DAL had to but not JB?

Easy there bud, I know you have a play in both airlines. YOU KNOW WE COULD NOT BRING BACK PEOPLE IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHO WOULD LEAVE. Dalpa created the contract in a way that gave 24 hours notice to retire---not only the senior guys, anyone. Guys that were 51 years old were bailing. No one knew who would do what. As far as the slow recalls, well, I can understand not wanting to furlough someone twice. They were very conservative, and maybe they know something about the future parking of airplanes that you and I do not. Initially DL wasn't going to recall at all this Summer, and Dalpa convinced them to do atleast 125. How can we be hosing our young when we don't have IOE pilots to fly with them or sim guys? Maybe you didn't know that our sim labs are empty. Why would that be? Primarily because all of the sim guys are on the line now trying to cover flights. The training people are still going in there and trying to qualify people a few at a time, but scheduling calls up and says we have nobody to cover a Frankfurt trip tonight.....He is then gone 3 days... 3 of our recent recalls went to LA on the 767. That is how short we are, but we have to cover the flights to create some revenue in the busy Summer months. Now that we are in the Fall, we can do more, but now we are in court....

As far as Dave Bushey goes, he is probably watching everything you say, and since you have no union over there, how do you protect yourself if Bushey calls you in to tell you to stop asking so many questions? Do many guys complain to upper management there? Can they?

And, I understand that every airline except SW is struggling with fuel (even though your leader said you would do great with $80 a barrel oil....). The key here is that your management gave you wages a ways back when oil wasn't as much. I can understand changing that NOW, but why not 8 months ago? Hey, $89 an hour for 12th year Captain is low. Some of you say it will change---great. How about raising the fares $5 and giving that to all of your hard working employees? JB often sets the fares themselves. $5 more would help and every other airline would follow suit..... You know I am right bud.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B6Guy]

OK but...

General, I can see that setting the rate low at first could cause some issues for other companies looking at the E190, but apparently no one was worried when we were being paid only $78/hr in the A320. That got fixed.

Anyone looking at E190 rates should take a look at the pay history at JB before they jump to conclusions about our starting payrate.

As for profitability, profits are very slim, to non-exsistant. Fuel is killing us too. Our hedges are only good for about 20-25% of our total useage. Not good.

So while we may be profitable, for now we are not PROFITABLE like a few years back. If prices rise, or fuel drops then five figure profit sharing bonuses could be seen again. For now take home wages is all there is.

I just met a retired Delto CA that took his lump sum over a year ago, on the 767ER and was still flying on contract. Glad for him, sad for the furloughed guys.

I so understand the 24hour retirement 'thing' but should the guy I met still be flying after a year plus??? I don't know the specifics, but it just seems that his replacement should have made it up through the ranks by now. Don't know.

I'm not mad, just irritated to read over and over again '12 yr E190 rates' and '5 year contracts' and 'cleaning the cabin [or lavs]' etc, etc BLAH, BLAH. Even though these items have been explained and beat to death. Oh well, such are the forums

Edit: After reading your above post, we would be glad to raise prices $5-10, but is Song, now under BK, going to match price increases?? I don't think so. Prices are going to stay low. Song will do everything to hold market share.

.

 

[General Lee]

General, I can see that setting the rate low at first could cause some issues for other companies looking at the E190, but apparently no one was worried when we were being paid only $78/hr in the A320. That got fixed.

Anyone looking at E190 rates should take a look at the pay history at JB before they jump to conclusions about our starting payrate.

As for profitability, profits are very slim, to non-exsistant. Fuel is killing us too. Our hedges are only good for about 20-25% of our total useage. Not good.

So while we may be profitable, for now we are not PROFITABLE like a few years back. If prices rise, or fuel drops then five figure profit sharing bonuses could be seen again. For now take home wages is all there is.

I just met a retired Delto CA that took his lump sum over a year ago, on the 767ER and was still flying on contract. Glad for him, sad for the furloughed guys.

I so understand the 24hour retirement 'thing' but should the guy I met still be flying after a year plus??? I don't know the specifics, but it just seems that his replacement should have made it up through the ranks by now. Don't know.

I'm not mad, just irritated to read over and over again '12 yr E190 rates' and '5 year contracts' and 'cleaning the cabin [or lavs]' etc, etc BLAH, BLAH. Even though these items have been explained and beat to death. Oh well, such are the forums

.

I don't like the PRPs hanging around either. They will go, eventually, and they actually have seniority numbers below the furloughs now. Will a judge keep them around? I don't think so, atleast not for long. They have retired, and most have served their purpose. We need to get training back up and running, and the Fall will allow that since we have scaled back. They are all supposed to be gone by Dec 31st, and recent bids have tried to compensate, although the 200 retirements on Sep 1st did surprise a lot of people. And, overall that program HELPED a lot of people because many of them were 53 or 54 years old---and even if they stayed an extra year, they are leaving 5 years early overall. Look at NW, they don't have that option and hardly any have retired. They will furlough a lot more over there, and we are short. The PRP program facilitated a lot of early retirements. 125 recalls were done this Summer, or are in progress right now, thanks to DALPA. That is better than none. I hope all come back soon.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"How about raising the fares $5 and giving that to all of your hard working employees? JB often sets the fares themselves. $5 more would help and every other airline would follow suit..... You know I am right bud."

Nope wrong again, jetblue is higher than Song, DAL does not seem to be following!

The perennial killer of fare raises, NWA, is in Ch.11, coincidence?

 

[banger]

"How about raising the fares $5 and giving that to all of your hard working employees? JB often sets the fares themselves. $5 more would help and every other airline would follow suit..... You know I am right bud."

Nope wrong again, jetblue is higher than Song, DAL does not seem to be following!

The perennial killer of fare raises, NWA, is in Ch.11, coincidence?

Exactly! General, is Song in buisness to make a profit? I'm not sure, it appears to be just a weapon to fight off LCC's. Our Management has told us they would love to charge another $5 per ticket but Song will not match. Song seems to be around to undercut the competition. Right now we charge more than Song. I don't set policy but I can bet that if Song matched JB, JB would raise fares where they compete.

 

[Sky Cowboy]

Thanks to DALPA the furlough recalls went from 30 a month as directed by the Arbitrator down to just 10.

Thanks to DALPA, green slipping was allowed with pilots on furlough.

Thanks to DALPA the No Furlough clause was given away (and yes, we won that after a long and grueling fight).

Thanks to DALPA scope was weakened (net result, job loss).

Thanks to DALPA code share was increased (again net result, job loss).

Thanks to DALPA Post Retirement Pilots got to have their cake and eat it too.

Thanks to DALPA Post Retirement Pilots were allowed to drop trips they were so desperately needed for and instead got paid to sit at home and do union work. Working as a "retired" pilot, I am still not clear as to who's interest they were representing while serving the union.

Thanks to DALPA the company was forced to project manning based on 24 hours notice of retirement.

Thanks to DALPA the reserve rules stripped away pilot seniority.

I could go on and on but I need to get back to filing out airline applications and networking with buddies at profitable companies. DALPA will meet this Monday and put the final nail in the coffin of the bottom 25% soley for the benefit of those at the top. It's not personal. It is just the nature of those who are greedy,stupid, fail to understand the basic charter of a union, and lack moral direction.

If you are at or near the bottom General Lee, I suggest you stop wasting time reading this and move on with your career. If you are near the bottom of your category or base, I suggest you run a new budget that includes commuting to a smaller seat that pays less. Might want to read up on the new reserve system as well.

The best you can hope for at this point is that you don't end up swinging gear at your next company for the Delta F/O's that have so much to thank DALPA for.