Greatest Threat?

[B737G]

I was out last night with some friends having a cold one and we were joined by an Airtran pilot who is a friend of a friend. We discussed the state of the industry and where our profession is going. I am curious as to what you all think is the greatest threat to our profession? Baseball style arbitration, scope, cabotage, low cost carriers. I have no desire to offend anyone but, I believe those willing to fly for substandard wages and lack of benefits are the greatest threat. Major airline pilots used to enjoy great pay and benefits and that is now under attack more than ever before. The Airtran pilot was a good guy but, his views on the profession truly disturbed me. He felt that a 777 capt. at Delta was not worth 300k per year. Considering what Airtran pilots make flying 717s, I think 300k for a 300 seat aircraft is about right. Why do some pilots have such lttle self worth? Maybe him not attending college had something to do with it. Again, not trying to hurt anyones feeling and I do not feel superior to anyone without a college degree but, I just feel I am worth more than what low cost carriers pay and had rather work in another field than fly for what they pay. Any thoughts?

 

[chawbein]

The supply of pilots is too high. Therefore the price (compensation) will go down. Lower the supply of pilots, and the price(compensation) will go up.

Set up some sort of deal like doctors do to only allow so many candidates into med school. Control the supply.

 

[flywithastick]

I think 300k for a 300 seat aircraft is about right.

Doesn't matter what you think, all that matters is supply and demand.

Why do some pilots have such lttle self worth?

Maybe it's not low self worth. maybe they just want to fly more than you!

Maybe him not attending college had something to do with it.

Ha! Yea, that's the ticket!

Again, not trying to hurt anyones feeling and I do not feel superior to anyone without a college degree but, I just feel I am worth more than what low cost carriers pay and had rather work in another field than fly for what they pay. Any thoughts?

Yea - lots of luck! BTW - you take any economics when getting that degree?

 

[banned username 2]

He felt that a 777 capt. at Delta was not worth 300k per year. Considering what Airtran pilots make flying 717s, I think 300k for a 300 seat aircraft is about right.

Obviously you missed the thread and news article about how UAL announced today that they lost:

$382,000,000.00 Million in January...

Thats:
$12,300,000.00 Million per day or
$513,440.00 per hour or
$8,550.00 per minute or
$142.50 per SECOND

Where do you expect this money to come from to pay for $300k/year salaries? Sounds to me like a company should have a salary structure that also allows the company to make some money too...

I'm not saying labor costs are UAL's only problem, UAL has many, many very serious problems... But if there is not enough money coming in to cover costs, you can't demand or expect a high salary just because "when you got into this profession thats what pilots were making"... Haven't you ever heard the phrase: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Times have changed, the flying public has changed, the economy has changed... and thusly salaries have and will change...

Life is tough...

 

[Indapool]

Here is a thought...
Your a TOOL
Get over yourself

 

[B737G]

Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Obviously you missed the thread and news article about how UAL announced today that they lost:

$382,000,000.00 Million in January...

Thats:
$12,300,000.00 Million per day or
$513,440.00 per hour or
$8,550.00 per minute or
$142.50 per SECOND

But if there is not enough money coming in to cover costs, you can't demand or expect a high salary just because "when you got into this profession thats what pilots were making"... Haven't you ever heard the phrase: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Times have changed, the flying public has changed, the economy has changed... and thusly salaries have and will change...

Life is tough...

You are right. Times have changed as a result of those willing to fly for substandard wages and benefits. They are killing what used to be a great profession.

 

[B737G]

Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Doesn't matter what you think, all that matters is supply and demand.

Maybe it's not low self worth. maybe they just want to fly more than you!

Ha! Yea, that's the ticket!

Yea - lots of luck! BTW - you take any economics when getting that degree?

Actually, I did not take any economics courses in undergraduate school. I did however take several while working on my MBA. I will not deny that current economic conditions do not warrant such high salaries but, I will argue why this came about. Those willing to prostitute themselves out for such low pay and lack of benefits are the cause for the decline of the profession. It is you who needs luck and an injection of self worth unless of course, you too lack the credentials to have self worth.

 

[General Lee]

Falcon Capt,

Were you turned down by Delta?

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Capt,

Were you turned down by Delta?

Bye Bye---General Lee

Never applied to Delta... (or any other major, national or regional for that matter)

Why do you ask?

Contrary to what you might think, not everyone wants to work for your beloved Delta...

Shouldn't you be busy posting a "Delta hedges fuel better then any other airline" post somewhere???

 

[B737G]

Here is a thought...
Your a TOOL
Get over yourself

Spoken like a true high school graduate.

 

[Indapool]

You are completely and utterly correct. I did, in fact, graduate high skool

And yet the fact remains
YOU are a TOOL
YOU DRIVE THE F@KING BUS FOR A LIVING
YOU are not now, nor will you ever be, worth 300K a year
YOU are a pompous twit who cannot conceive of the notion that what you do is not all that important
And you will NEVER realize that it is people like YOU that are dragging down the industry with your incessant whining about how others make a living

But hey, you're a COLLEGE graduate
You are much smarter than most people
You worked really, really hard to become a pilot
And you spent alot of money on it
And it's really, really scary sometimes too!
BY GAWD YOU DESERVE IT!!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Falcon Capt,

You mean you wouldn't give up your crumy corp gig for the chance at "The Majors"

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon Capt,

You mean you wouldn't give up your crumy corp gig for the chance at "The Majors"

Hehehehe.... You mean right before raise time and with bonus payout coming up next month (of course it is only a measly 14%) ? I don't think so! Thank you very much

 

[busdrver]

I write a check to management every 2 weeks so I can fly

The greatest threat is lack of passengers, pure and simple.

 

[B737G]

You are completely and utterly correct. I did, in fact, graduate high skool

Obviously spelling was not an area of focus at your school!

 

[Indapool]

It was a JOKE sport

 

[46Driver]

For perspective, I showed this thread at the squadron late this afternoon. Not a single pilot in Operations could understand why you deserve $300k to simply fly an airplane from point A to point B - if you can get it that's great - but deserve it?

 

[TurboS7]

I won't demand it nor deserve it, but if someone offers it to me I sure will take it. One little decision could be a detrement to the whole operation, a little extra pay to make sure I make the right one isn't a problem at all.

 

[Dep676]

I won't demand it nor deserve it, but if someone offers it to me I sure will take it. One little decision could be a detrement to the whole operation, a little extra pay to make sure I make the right one isn't a problem at all.

That's fine if you get it offered to you. I don't think anybody here would turn that kind of money down if it was offered to them. It happens to be expected by some. That is even when the airline is going down the crapper and is on the furge of closing. Well enjoy your 300k for now. Whe your airline goes belly up. You can blame yourself for that one and enjoy the unemployment line. It doesn't take a MBA to figure that one out.

 

[Beantown]

Re: Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Those willing to prostitute themselves out for such low pay and lack of benefits are the cause for the decline of the profession. It is you who needs luck and an injection of self worth unless of course, you too lack the credentials to have self worth.

An Airtran CA can easily make $150,000 a year to fly a 100+ seat airplane. If you call that prostituting then we have real problems.

You are right. Times have changed as a result of those willing to fly for substandard wages and benefits. They are killing what used to be a great profession.

Falcon Capt just gave a long description why salaries are going the way they are (huge losses) and you come up with this
sh%t. Why don't you go use that MBA in North Korea. I heard they love fixing wages and prices over there. You will fit in nicely.
-Bean

 

[Jeff G]

I just feel I am worth more than what low cost carriers pay and had rather work in another field than fly for what they pay.

Just so I understand you correctly, and no offense meant. Are you saying that, given that no better option were available to you at the time, you would turn down a flying job that tops out at $150k/yr because you are worth more than that, only to walk away from your aviation career to take up another career entirely?

Please explain, if this is correct, because my bull$hit alarm is blaring quite loudly and I hate it when it's wrong.

 

[jon210]

Hell, I just like flying. If I only get paid what the free market bears whats wrong with that. No one promised that you would become a millionaire from flying. Lotsa people do it because they like it and can make a decent living doing it. There is no entitlement. If two similar houses are for sale and one is $10,000 cheaper which one would you buy? This is true of salaries as well. You can either do it better or cheaper, but for now the majors aren't doing it better and not cheaper. So how will they stay in business?

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Please explain, if this is correct, because my bull$hit alarm is blaring quite loudly and I hate it when it's wrong.

HAHAHAHHA.... Does that B.S. Alarm come with a flashing red MASTER WARNING or a yellow MASTER CAUTION

I KNEW I should have worn my boots today!

 

[B737G]

Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Just so I understand you correctly, and no offense meant. Are you saying that, given that no better option were available to you at the time, you would turn down a flying job that tops out at $150k/yr because you are worth more than that, only to walk away from your aviation career to take up another career entirely?

Please explain, if this is correct, because my bull$hit alarm is blaring quite loudly and I hate it when it's wrong.

Of course I would walk away. I had job offers paying upwards of 125k annually after graduating from grad school. I was only 29 at the time so, I am certain I could make much more in the future. As for the previous post that stated Airtran captains can make 150k annually, that seems like too much for flying a 130 or so seat airplane. Maybe those flying 777/747 should make more than 300k annually. It is a shame that we spend so much time fighting one another when our focus should be on management. You all are eating right out of their hands!

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

As for the previous post that stated Airtran captains can make 150k annually, that seems like too much for flying a 130 or so seat airplane. Maybe those flying 777/747 should make more than 300k annually.

So why would a 777 captain deserve more than double what an Airtran captain makes???

My plane only has 12 seats, so what should I be making? $12,000 per year?

Your logic is amusing....

Of course I would walk away. I had job offers paying upwards of 125k annually after graduating from grad school. I was only 29 at the time so, I am certain I could make much more in the future.

I don't know about the rest of you but I am getting a red MASTER WARNING and a non-silenceable horn on this one!

 

[beezlebozo]

Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Obviously you missed the thread and news article about how UAL announced today that they lost:

$382,000,000.00 Million in January...

Thats:
$12,300,000.00 Million per day or
$513,440.00 per hour or
$8,550.00 per minute or
$142.50 per SECOND

Where do you expect this money to come from to pay for $300k/year salaries? Sounds to me like a company should have a salary structure that also allows the company to make some money too...

I'm not saying labor costs are UAL's only problem, UAL has many, many very serious problems...


Well, according to UAL own financial statements, if labor took a 50% cut across the board, UAL would have still lost money last year. Must be those expensive pilots, and not the fact that planes have to be more than 100% full to break even at current prices...

 

[B737G]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

An Airtran CA can easily make $150,000 a year to fly a 100+ seat airplane. If you call that prostituting then we have real problems.





Falcon Capt just gave a long description why salaries are going the way they are (huge losses) and you come up with this
sh%t. Why don't you go use that MBA in North Korea. I heard they love fixing wages and prices over there. You will fit in nicely.
-Bean

Actually, salaries are going the way they are because certain pilots are willing to prostitute themselves out for less pay and little or no benefits. Beantown, we can talk N. Korea all you want once you have served your country!

 

[Jack Schitt]

Dude, did you get your MBA out of a cereal box?

Management is where the money is!

Why are you jackin' around as a pilot if you're so smart?

 

[Jeff G]

Re: Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Of course I would walk away. I had job offers paying upwards of 125k annually after graduating from grad school. I was only 29 at the time so, I am certain I could make much more in the future.

Definitely a MASTER WARNING there. You're foregoing that kind of money right out of grad school for the opportunity to sit reserve, face furlough, lose your pension, your medical, or your career, merely on the chance that you last long enough to make the really big bucks? At the same time you have to know that making the really big bucks in this environment will take a decade or two (if age 60 doesn't get you first), but yet making six figures in a year or three at AAI or JBLU is bad? I'm not sure if this is merely a self-serving "principled" stand on your part or wildly unrealistic expectations. At this time, you're lucky to get any flying job anywhere. The next time any of the really well paying airlines hires again is a number of years off.

What the heck are you doing flying, if your education (and self-assessment) is worth so much? And don't say anything to the effect that you just "love to fly". You've made it quite plain that this is a monetary issue.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Greatest Threat?

Actually, salaries are going the way they are because certain pilots are willing to prostitute themselves out for less pay and little or no benefits. Beantown, we can talk N. Korea all you want once you have served your country!

I get it now, so one day pilots woke up and said "I think I'll suggest a 29% pay cut today! And get all my fellow pilots to do the same!"

Talk about a twisted view of reality...