Goodbye usapa!!!!!!

[Turtle21]

I know how to read, which seems to be beyond your capabilities.

But evidently you don't know how to cut and paste the relevant portions that prove your case. And besides that, you have been one of the most vocal advocates for ALPA, and that says everything one needs to know about your ability to grasp even obvious things.

 

[kingairip]

This is all speculation, and I am far from convinced that they will succeed in being granted Single Carrier in time. The SLI process is on an MOU mandated timeline and the NMB is not.

I think your post is right on...except this last part. Already they are falling behind the MOU mandated timeline. Within 30 days of the effective date, USAPA and APA were to have created the Seniority Integration Protocol Agreement. That didn't happen and is still yet to happen. Not sure what that means to the rest of the timeline, but my guess is everything will slide farther and farther to the right.

 

[Bringupthebird]

More to the point, APA cannot reach a negotiated SLI with itself.

Have you shared this earthshaking news with the USAPA BPR?

 

[ackattacker]

Have you shared this earthshaking news with the USAPA BPR?

Presumably you are referring to USAPA trying to force a DOH seniority list on the West without negotiating. Not going to rehash that for the millionth time here. There is a big difference in that MOU and M-B law requires negotiations and arbitration. Obviously negotiations, by definition, require two parties to exist in order to have anything to negotiate. There was no contract or law at the time requiring (or even really allowing) USAPA to negotiate with the West as a separate class. Although Judge Silver seemed at one point to think that was what should be happening. It's not particularly relevant to the present situation, regardless.

I see a number of possibilities emerging from the present situation. What ends up happening is going to be a result of timing, legal wrangling, and what the NMB signs off on.

First scenario is that USAPA and APA hash out a Seniority Integration Protocol and the SLI is completed before the representational election.

Second scenario is that USAPA and APA hash out a Seniority Integration Protocol, a representational election takes place, and the SLI is completed using the agreed upon protocol but under the banner of APA. This, I believe, is the general timeline spelled out in the MOU. In this scenario, the SLI integration committee representing US Airways pilots would have been chosen by USAPA ahead of time even though USAPA itself may dissolve as a distinct entity halfway through the process.

Third scenario is that the representational election takes place before a Seniority Integration Protocol is formed or committees are assigned. In this case, APA bylaws would control the process, but there would still be a clear-cut requirement that the US Airways pilots have representation at the SLI negotiations. Hence, there would probably have to be elections for US Air APA officers to represent the US Air pilots at SLI negotiations.

This third scenario seems to be the one that the West pilots are giddy for, because it means no USAPA involvement anywhere in the process. Better be careful what you wish for, though! It means handing over a lot of procedural control to people who certainly have no particular vested interest in doing what's in your best interest.

 

[Bringupthebird]

No, the most likely scenario is that APA sets the timeline by dragging its feet until a representation election occurs and then argues against dual representation, thus having sole control over the SLI process. The MOU did not envision this happening, but there is no reason why it could not. They may have token representation, but not effectual. Sort of like the BPR votes against PHX. Majority rules as you are so fond of saying.

USAPA has never had the best interests of west or east in mind since they ginned up their little fiasco. They are interested in whatever cements their power, strokes their egos and lines their pockets. There has never been a more divisive and vindictive group of pilots in the history of organized labor than USAPA, so the bet on APA is a fairly hedged one.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Once again, there will not be a representational election.

 

[ackattacker]

There probably will be a representational election. But it's a moot point. At some point, 3, 6, maybe 12 months from now the NMB will issue a single carrier finding. Then there's a 30 day waiting period during which petitions will be made as to why APA should be the new union (or ALPA, or the Teamsters, etc). There could be an election. Of course it's going to be APA, we all know that, election or no.

The MOU specifies that an Seniority Integration Protocol is supposed to be formulated (by USAPA and APA and the Company) within 30 days of POR. That deadline came and went but I seriously doubt that the NMB is going to find single carrier before that important milestone is met. One formulated and accepted, the Seniority Integration Protocol is binding upon the surviving representative (APA) and, importantly, the company. As is the rest of the MOU. Remember that the text of M-B and Allegheny-Mohawk puts a lot of the onus on the company to provide for a fair and equitable SLI process. If the company allowed APA to control the SLI, or reneged upon an agreed upon SLI process, they would open themselves up to enormous liability. Not going to happen.

EDIT: On page 2, C. Festerpuss posted most of the relevant information including the case law. Legally, it's pretty clear.

 

[Guppiedriver]

You're wrong on the election and the timeline.

 

[Turtle21]

You're wrong on the election and the timeline.

AA will staple the East and the West below TWA and Reno because MB does not apply....

 

[pave driver]

The SLI will not be DOH or the NIC. APA and USAPA will work the list together using MB law.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If the company allowed APA to control the SLI, or reneged upon an agreed upon SLI process, they would open themselves up to enormous liability. Not going to happen.

Who would pay for said lawsuit? Not APA or the west or the east pilots who have seen the folly of trying to litigate their way into relevance or the east who supported USAPA, but didn't get their promised upgrade. That leaves the few AFO's who will soon tire of actually having to fight for something (little experience in actually doing that). Maybe you can use that little wooden casket you took you suspect cards to NMB in to beg for coins outside the crew room.

Here's where your reputation among judges will come back to haunt you. Maybe you should have tried to find more common ground and build support among pilots rather than alienate yourselves.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The SLI will not be DOH or the NIC. APA and USAPA will work the list together using MB law.

The SLI will be whatever APA says it is. Hey, just for fun, try and get them to put DOH as the sole SLI methodology in their constitution.

 

[Bringupthebird]

APA will likely blend all the lists with a ratio by category, the M-B arbitrators will nod and it will be done. And USAPA will pull out it's lanyards to hang themselves.

 

[ackattacker]

You're wrong on the election and the timeline.

That's like, your opinion, man.

Seriously, even if I'm wrong about the election, it doesn't change anything materially so who cares. But I'm curious what makes you so sure of yourself. Do you have something to cite?

In what way is the timeline going to be different? Do you have something to add beyond 8 word declarative statements?

 

[Bringupthebird]

The M-B arbitrators will look at the Nic, the recent mergers, APA's desired SLI methodology and compare that with the wholly unreasonable and outdated DOH methodology and make their decision. What would a reasonable person think they would choose?

 

[pave driver]

The SLI will be whatever APA says it is. Hey, just for fun, try and get them to put DOH as the sole SLI methodology in their constitution.

Not going to happen.

 

[Guppiedriver]

That's like, your opinion, man.

Seriously, even if I'm wrong about the election, it doesn't change anything materially so who cares. But I'm curious what makes you so sure of yourself. Do you have something to cite?

In what way is the timeline going to be different? Do you have something to add beyond 8 word declarative statements?

Go to the NMB website and educate yourself.

 

[Turtle21]

The SLI will not be DOH or the NIC. APA and USAPA will work the list together using MB law.

No. No. No. Not if we donate enough to Marty!!! Donate now! We can save the Nic and get our 330!!

 

[IBNAV8R]

Just because USAPA is fighting it does not mean binding arbitration must be ignored. It's already decided - end of story. The only thing that remains is how to merge the Nic list into the other.

My prediction is that USAPA will be out-USAPA'd by APA.

 

[General Lee]

Just because USAPA is fighting it does not mean binding arbitration must be ignored. It's already decided - end of story. The only thing that remains is how to merge the Nic list into the other.

My prediction is that USAPA will be out-USAPA'd by APA.

And I suspect there will be arbitration involved in the final SLI between the APA and USAPA. Do you think any of the arbitrators know Nicelau himself? Could that weigh in on their eventual award? You never know.... But, always look for the other hand when shaking hands with an Easties. The other hand has crossed fingers behind his back....


Bye Bye---General Lee