Goodbye Horizon Jets...

[Capi_Cafre']

If I accept your drift, then QX pilots are in more trouble than we think. For example, our Q400 CA rates, let alone our 70-seat RJ rates, are already higher than jetBlue and USAirways Embraer 190 rates.

Nothing would surprise me much right now, but I think it's almost as likely that AS pilots would invite the 190 on their property for less than QX's current RJ and Q400 rates. Why not? If it's growth and it's going to be the junior aircraft, why wouldn't AS pilots take it at jetBlue or Airways rates?

What's lost in all this is why AAG doesn't just merge their two airlines. The overhead squandered on running two airlines under one marketing scheme is shameful. I'm surprised the board lets management get away with it.

Yep, the shock waves from Jet Blue rolling over on the 190 rates are still spreading through the industry. USAir then found itself having to underbid the Mesas of the world to capture 190 flying that, according to the ALPA mainline chest-thumpers, it already owned. Now a bunch of turboprop pilots on the other side of the country are going to end up being told: "they bent over, so you will too."

It's the whipsaw value that keeps the two airlines separate. If there's one thing airline managers fear it's united pilot groups. I've always thought that Alaska and Horizon had the best chance of anyone in the industry to get past the tribal jealousy thing and "get it right" and work together for the common good, whether through making joining the pilot groups a negotiating goal or simply understanding the benefits of not being the first one to grab for a crumb that management lets fall to the floor. I know for a fact that the Alaska pilots proposed a bid-through arrangement for Horizon pilots that would have saved millions annually that went nowhere fast.

It's hard to imagine the AAG making a capital investment in an EMB 190 program. I think that the jury's still out on the airframe itself, and even if that weren't an issue I don't think that Ayer & Co. would recognize opportunity if it walked up and bit them on the ass. There are a lot of advantages to having a single fleet type on the books. If they really thought that they needed that sort of lift in the system I'm pretty sure that they'd just pay someone else to take on the risks of ownership.

If the Air Group did decide to get into the 100 seat segment, it's unclear to me how much the Alaska pilots would have to underbid the current Horizon rates by to make it a wash financially. Pilots' hourly rates are just a part of compensation costs. Alaska's FA's get paid more, Alaska stays in nicer hotels, etc. I don't think that it could happen at rates above the highest FO scale.

Whatever, my money's on Alaska and SW deciding that beating each other up really isn't that much fun after all. The guys at the top will get paid, they'll throw the poor schmucks still holding onto their ALK shares a bone, and that will be that. Horizon will get spun off or sold to an existing operator who wants to get into the Q400 biz, and that will be that as well. Game over.

 

[dashtrash]

What comments? That I'm glad I'm not there. Seems reasonable to me. I'm sure a lot of them wish they weren't there either. It wasn't directed to them, just a statement.quote]


Don't waste your breath on him.

The
Idiot
Continues
On

The folks that bash the exco could not hold the chairman's water. The adults are in charge.

 

[MALSR]

If I accept your drift, then QX pilots are in more trouble than we think. For example, our Q400 CA rates, let alone our 70-seat RJ rates, are already higher than jetBlue and USAirways Embraer 190 rates.

Nothing would surprise me much right now, but I think it's almost as likely that AS pilots would invite the 190 on their property for less than QX's current RJ and Q400 rates. Why not? If it's growth and it's going to be the junior aircraft, why wouldn't AS pilots take it at jetBlue or Airways rates?

What's lost in all this is why AAG doesn't just merge their two airlines. The overhead squandered on running two airlines under one marketing scheme is shameful. I'm surprised the board lets management get away with it.

So someone else gets it too^. Its not just me that thinks Horizon pay rates contributed to the loss of airframes. You are naive to think its not a factor-although not the only factor. A new contract for Horizon pilots needs to put them in a competitive state, not a "we are the only pilots in this industry that have the nuts to set the bar high."

 

[regionaltard]

So someone else gets it too^. Its not just me that thinks Horizon pay rates contributed to the loss of airframes. You are naive to think its not a factor-although not the only factor. A new contract for Horizon pilots needs to put them in a competitive state, not a "we are the only pilots in this industry that have the nuts to set the bar high."

You seem to be pretty interested in lower pay for Horizon pilots.

 

[tomdav]

Hey Malsr why don't you go tell the Southwest pilots how they will be losing a/c if they dont drop their pay in line with the bottem feeders like United, Delta, Northwest, ect ect.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

So someone else gets it too^. Its not just me that thinks Horizon pay rates contributed to the loss of airframes. You are naive to think its not a factor-although not the only factor. A new contract for Horizon pilots needs to put them in a competitive state, not a "we are the only pilots in this industry that have the nuts to set the bar high."

I don't think anyone doubts that our pay rates had a lot to do with what's going on. But are you seriously saying that we should willingly drop our pay just because everyone else has? If everyone takes on that stance, the decline will never end. We'll eventually see widebodies being flown for Mesa B1900 rates! Yes it's important to be competitive, but it's also important (to me at least) not to become a bottom-feeding whore.

 

[tico]

I don't think anyone doubts that our pay rates had a lot to do with what's going on. But are you seriously saying that we should willingly drop our pay just because everyone else has? If everyone takes on that stance, the decline will never end. We'll eventually see widebodies being flown for Mesa B1900 rates! Yes it's important to be competitive, but it's also important (to me at least) not to become a bottom-feeding whore.

Pay-rates had nothing to do with it......A very expensive jet like the crj-700 cannot make money as a stand alone airliner.....Not enough seats to pay the costs that go with buying it, maintaining it and operating it....No one else does that.....The AAG will not lose money to build feed....So that is why they are being sold.....You could fly for free and they still would lose money.....The test for this will be Horizon coming to you guys in 6 months and saying that if you will be "market rate" then the AAG will keep some jets and there will be no furloughs.....If you agree they will come back to you in 6 more months and say that "market conditions "have deteriorated and they still have to sell them....But now your Q-400 rates are lower and they will stay that way.......Hold the line...

 

[Golden Falcon]

Any former Cascade folks out there enjoying this??

 

[ReverseSensing]

Any former Cascade folks out there enjoying this??

Enjoying what? The potential for QX pilots to lose their jobs. Massive disruption to people's lives. Are you serious? Are you on meds?

 

[ReverseSensing]

Pay-rates had nothing to do with it.............Hold the line...

Exactly. We're poised to operate a fleet of the largest, most cost-efficient aircraft ever operated by QX. No need to panic. No need to take concessions.

I've heard tell of an airline that pays and treats their folks well and is still consistently profitable. It apparently can be done. We just need the leadership to pull it off.