Good First Officers?

[Ty Webb]

Shows how little you know, kid, I was already a jet Captain before you hid your first gerbil.

 

[Flechas]

I feel it for all the FO's you've flown with Captain Ty.

 

[Ty Webb]

And I wonder why I usually don't spend much time on the Regionals board . . bunch of pole-smokin' hamster-hiding-living in the parents' basement nancy-boys over here.

Heh-heh.

 

[Flechas]

Hahaha. Calm down Mr. Major Airline Captain. I'm sure you atarted your career as a major pilot, making big money and flying all over the world.

Go keep jerking off...

 

[-9Capt]

BTW- -9 CAPT enlightened me on the ATIS and clearnace debate, so I do apologize for that, though I still never heard anyone actually use this practice.

I'd bet Ty's annual salary it was a carry over from Eastern Airlines, a lot of our standard practices are Eastern inspired (especially back when we had DC-9's).

 

[FlyChicaga]

I'll somewhat side with Ty on this one. I flew with a Captain not-to-long-ago who really was one of the greatest guys I've had the pleasure of being on a trip with. Really, a whole damm lot of fun, but at the same time very professional. We could joke around and have a good time without interferring with communication or procedure. Anyways, he did something which I picked up on and now do all the time. When he'd get the ATIS, either from ACARS or over COM2, he would brief me on it. It would go something like, "Ready for ATIS? Ok, info Oscar is current. Winds are 200 at 15 knots, visibility is unlimited, broken layer at 5500, temp/dewpoint spread is 23 and 15, altimeter is 30.00. They are using the runway 22L ILS approach, and I have you bugged for a Flaps 45 landing using 42,000 speeds for a landing weight of 41,200 lbs. Cool?"

I do the same thing now when it comes to the weight and balance and takeoff data. I'll brief what the takeoff weight restriction is, and what I put in for the takeoff thrust setting. Something like, "We'll be landing structural restricted to 47,315 lbs, and I have us planned off runway 4L for a reduced thrust takeoff." This usually leads into either of our departure briefings.

I really think that communicating this stuff, although possibly repetitive, ensures we both know what is going on, and there aren't any surprises. Plus, it takes maybe two minutes to accomplish, then we can resume our normally scheduled discussions about which overnight in Canada has the hotter women (I think Quebec), or which beer is better for the soul.

 

[Flechas]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

I don't think it was a "must", but instead a "courtesy."

Oh, yeah, the radio . . . . when you are getting the ATIS and clearance, it's common courtesy to say, "ATIS (or clearance) coming up on Com 2" or something like that . . . always appreciated, by me at least.

I don't see much harm in that. If I'm getting clearance or ATIS from a non-D-ATIS/PDC airport, it would be even easier to just let him listen-in instead of me briefing him on it. That way, he can hear it, and I can keep working. Save the time to ensure he knows the clearance and/or ATIS. For me personally, if he didn't listen in, I'd just say "here's the ATIS and clearance" and go through it. Just today we were given a different DP out of IAH on the PDC, so I briefed the Captain that we had a new routing for departure. No biggie, just ensuring everyone is kept in the loop and the job is done right. I just see that's what Ty is talking about.

Check out the ASAP reports each month posted in the crew rooms, and how many times people write-in about FMS entry and routing errors from the clearance. Not a huge issue going from IND-EWR, but might be a massive issue when filed MLM-LAX or something over mountainous terrain. Or worse when there is a taxiway closure reported on ATIS, which you don't write down (we know how those can be). Then when your Captain takes it on the ground and turns into a dug-up high-speed... wasn't there an interview scenario like that last year?

I know I'm coming across as really dorkish and anal, but I've read through so many NTSB reports where an accident might not have happened if people were properly communicating and verifying their actions with one another. Both up front between the pilots, and between the cockpit and cabin as well.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

What Ty is saying is that at AirTran, the required procedure per the manual is to listen to it together. If that's true, then listening and then briefing is not the proper way to do it at AirTran. Just do whatever the book says at your company. Pretty simple.

 

[Flechas]

Anyways, he did something which I picked up on and now do all the time. When he'd get the ATIS, either from ACARS or over COM2, he would brief me on it. It would go something like, "Ready for ATIS? Ok, info Oscar is current. Winds are 200 at 15 knots, visibility is unlimited, broken layer at 5500, temp/dewpoint spread is 23 and 15, altimeter is 30.00. They are using the runway 22L ILS approach, and I have you bugged for a Flaps 45 landing using 42,000 speeds for a landing weight of 41,200 lbs. Cool?"

I don't see much harm in that. If I'm getting clearance or ATIS from a non-D-ATIS/PDC airport, it would be even easier to just let him listen-in instead of me briefing him on it. That way, he can hear it, and I can keep working. Save the time to ensure he knows the clearance and/or ATIS. For me personally, if he didn't listen in, I'd just say "here's the ATIS and clearance" and go through it. Just today we were given a different DP out of IAH on the PDC, so I briefed the Captain that we had a new routing for departure. No biggie, just ensuring everyone is kept in the loop and the job is done right. I just see that's what Ty is talking about.

So which one is it then? You are saying you do two different things here. Theres nothing wrong with doing either, which is what I've been trying to say, as long as both pilots know whats going on with the ATIS and clearance. But your friend Ty sais that to be a good FO you have to hold hands with your captain and listen to the ATIS together.

 

[Flechas]

What Ty is saying is that at AirTran, the required procedure per the manual is to listen to it together. If that's true, then listening and then briefing is not the proper way to do it at AirTran. Just do whatever the book says at your company. Pretty simple.

That's what I've been saying, but that's not good enough for him.

It's not about being superior, maybe that's the way they learned and the way you learned. Our company culture is to write it down and then then brief it, which is just as good.

Ok Ty, so tell me what's so wrong with writting down the ATIS on a piece of paper and then showing the Captain, same with the clearance. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as listening to it together.
I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but that doesn't mean is the only way to do it.

The only reason this dicussion started is because I asked you what you meant about listening to the ATIS together, because I had never heard of such practice, and you turned the whole thing into a pissing contest. I've jumpeated with Continental and NWA and never saw that either.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Me personally, I brief the Captain on the ATIS and clearance for departure and approach. That is whether I got it via ACARS or COM2. Normally if the Captain heard it and understood it, then they'll tell me so and I can skip it. Just because I'm listening to ATIS or getting the clearance with the Captain in the cockpit, they could be distracted with other things. I can't just assume they heard it.

The example I gave above was "IF" I was flying with Ty, what I'd do based on his requests for ATIS and clearance courtesy.

 

[Flechas]

Me personally, I brief the Captain on the ATIS and clearance for departure and approach. That is whether I got it via ACARS or COM2. Normally if the Captain heard it and understood it, then they'll tell me so and I can skip it. Just because I'm listening to ATIS or getting the clearance with the Captain in the cockpit, they could be distracted with other things. I can't just assume they heard it.

The example I gave above was "IF" I was flying with Ty, what I'd do based on his requests for ATIS and clearance courtesy.

Fair enough I guess. I do the same, I guess we all do the same.

I think we made a really big deal out of this.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I think we made a really big deal out of this.

Par for the course! After all, this is the internet!!

 

[-9Capt]

The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure it's only the clearance (not the ATIS) that's addressed in our FOM.

I think this horse has been beat to death.

 

[Flechas]

I think this horse has been beat to death.

Couldn't agree any more!

 

[Ty Webb]

It's not a matter of horse-beating . . . it's more a matter of jackass-slapping.

Problem is, everyone's got their own idea of who the jackass is that needs slapped.

 

[Flechas]

It's not a matter of horse-beating . . . it's more a matter of jackass-slapping.

Problem is, everyone's got their own idea of who the jackass is that needs slapped.

And who do you think is the jackass?

 

[dash8driver]

then again.. some of us think that you two just need to get a room..

 

[Rudder120]

if your cpt is an ass, just pull out the manual and act limke your reading it periodically lokking at his side of the panel. every now and then put an unusual look on your face. then when he/she asks "what?", just say "Oh nothing." and go about your business. Some guys won't give a shhhh, but it'll freak some out and they'll really straightne up> good luck!

 

[Mookie]

make sure when you do that though, you have the book right side up.

when my fo does that, I just ask him to pass me the sports section.

Mookie

 

[Ty Webb]

And who do you think is the jackass?

Do you know the old saying about the poker game? Every game has a chump. Look around the table, and if you don't know who the chump is, it's you.

 

[Flechas]

I didn't ask who the chump was (I looked around and I sow him), I asked who do YOU think the chump is. Maybe you need to think before you post. I know you want to throw your jokes out there, but you have to waut for the right moment, that way they are funny.

 

[Pimpin']

Actually it was pretty funny.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok Ty, so tell me what's so wrong with writting down the ATIS on a piece of paper and then showing the Captain, same with the clearance. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as listening to it together.
I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but that doesn't mean is the only way to do it.

The only reason this dicussion started is because I asked you what you meant about listening to the ATIS together, because I had never heard of such practice, and you turned the whole thing into a pissing contest. I've jumpeated with Continental and NWA and never saw that either.

Just as a side note, this is prob. a throw over from 3 man cockpits. As the FE would usually get the the atis while enroute, as he wakes up back there, and determines he wasn't done his job yet.....He'd usually yawn and make a comment, getting the atis on #2/3 whatever. If at that time the capt or f/o were awake they were free to listen in if they chose to. F/E would then write it down on a piece of paper and throw it up front. Not sure how to explain it, but when the weather is down, hearing the ATIS or actually reading the D-Atis seems to bring the picture in a little better than reading someones chicken scratch of the pertinent items that were broadcast. Otherwise known as staying in the loop.....sorta like if everyone was on headsets but the guy flying. Guy flying isn't on a headset and doesn't have the speaker on, and relies on the person working the radios to transmit ATC instructions to him.

 

[Flechas]

Actually it was pretty funny.

I'll give him that much, I had a good laugh too!

 

[Simon Says]

A good FO doesn't get arrested on an overnight.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

A good FO doesn't get arrested on an overnight.

And ensures the same for the Captain.

 

[westwind driver]

Be with the program, speak up if you see something wrong, but don't be a pain in the a@@ that has to question every little decision the Cpt. makes if it ain't breaking a rule or going to kill you. In return, he'll probably let you fly the plane how you want as long as you aren't going to kill anyone. I would much rather fly with someone with a good attitude who is a little newer and makes a few small mistakes than a bitter, know-it-all pain in the ass.

And just be quiet sometimes. Shhh.

""There are four ways, and only four ways, in which we have contact with the world. We are evaluated and classified by these four contacts: what we do, how we look, what we say, and how we say it." - Dale Carnegie

I agree with being able to speak up about irregular/unsafe things. However, even if nothing is "wrong," the Captain's actions may be irregular and/or unfamiliar to the FO.

As a type rated FO who swaps legs (and seats) I am in a very priviledged position. Close to 2 years ago, when I first started flying jets, I asked a lot of questions to the senior pilots I flew with. Some pilots may misconstrue this genuine curiosity and yearn for new knowledge as "questioning my experience and judgement." Sometimes that sort of second guessing the more experienced pilot/captain does occur, but in my case, and possibly in other's, the FO simply asked "Why are you doing that, in that particular way?" simply because he/she wanted to better understand the captain's decision etc.

Sometimes there are better ways of doings things, or handy gouges for quick and accurate calculations, or maybe it's the most ideal technique for using the radar in the terminal area.

I think being Johnny-On-The-Spot as a SIC/FO shows you are actually interested in what you do and that the details (pre-flight preperation, paperwork et al) of flying are just as important to you as making smooth landings. I try to approach the job with a 'can-do' attitude, while at the same time not being the annoying "I'll do anything for you and I'll kiss your ass" FO.

Just remember safety is #1, be prepared and try to do things before the captain/pic asks them to be done. Just don't do it without advising him/her first. Communication is key to getting along in the cockpit, and I believe that if the PIC/SIC tell each other what it is they're doing, things will flow smoothly.

As for being a no-it-all, there's nothing wrong with being well versed in a particular subject, but there is no need to try and pound home a point just to make yourself feel important. So you went to ERAU, does the other guy really want to know or care that "at ERAU they taught us to do it this way cause blah blah blah, and the part number of that rivet is blah blah blah, oh and those types of clouds are this and that and BLAH BLAH BLAH, etc etc etc"
Don't push your knowledge onto others, because as Dale Carnegie wrote,

"You can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you."

And don't overly criticize others with your opinion.

"Criticism of others is futile and if you indulge in it often you should be warned that it can be fatal to your career." - Dale Carnegie

 

[LAXSaabdude]

I agree with being able to speak up about irregular/unsafe things. However, even if nothing is "wrong," the Captain's actions may be irregular and/or unfamiliar to the FO.

As a type rated FO who swaps legs (and seats) I am in a very priviledged position. Close to 2 years ago, when I first started flying jets, I asked a lot of questions to the senior pilots I flew with. Some pilots may misconstrue this genuine curiosity and yearn for new knowledge as "questioning my experience and judgement." Sometimes that sort of second guessing the more experienced pilot/captain does occur, but in my case, and possibly in other's, the FO simply asked "Why are you doing that, in that particular way?" simply because he/she wanted to better understand the captain's decision etc.

I think most captains can tell the difference between intellectual curiosity and a "Control Freak" FO. I have had the pleasure to fly with the former, and the misfortune of flying with the latter. The latter has his own agenda as how and when he expects things to be done (even if the captain is already complying with FARs, co. policy, etc.), and will ask endless "prompting" questions to try to get the captain to fly to the FOs expectations. Guys like this make for a long and tiring trip.

be prepared and try to do things before the captain/pic asks them to be done. Just don't do it without advising him/her first. Communication is key to getting along in the cockpit, and I believe that if the PIC/SIC tell each other what it is they're doing, things will flow smoothly.

Agreed. The FO should always try to get his own work done efficiently and in a timely fashion. Unfortunately, there are those who will take "initiative" to the extreme. I have had FOs put the flaps up and down without my asking because the felt it just HAD to be done THIS INSTANT. There are some FOs who try to set the pace of the entire operation (see my above comments).

Flying with a Type "A" is no fun. When I'm flying the airplane, I'll decide if I want to call the airport in sight, when I want to call traffic in sight, when I want to sidestep to the inboard runway, when I want any shortcuts, etc. If there is no safety concern, there is no need for prompting or discussion of these types of matters. Most people are on the same page with this, but there are those who will either make requests of ATC without getting my input, or (almost as bad) relentlessly prompt me to try to take every shortcut that they want.

Sometimes the best thing to do is just relax.

LAXSaabdude.