Go Jet

[FlyHIToo]

redbook:

You took a stand and you ended up losing the flying....is that a success?



A350

September 12, 2005


Dear Trans States ALPA Member:


Some Basic Facts About a Single-Carrier Petition


The Company has stated that it intends to recognize and sign an Agreement with the Teamsters. The Teamsters will request certification from the National Mediation Board. This could happen as soon as ***** obtains its final approval from the FAA, which could occur as early as September 16. To challenge this, ALPA could file a petition to the National Mediation Board requesting that the Board find that TSA and ***** are a “single carrier” for the purposes of labor relations, and therefore ALPA should be the bargaining representative for ***** pilots.


No doubt the Company would contest this petition. You should know that the ALPA legal department is aware of only one contested single-carrier petition that has been granted by the NMB in the last 30 years. Clearly, one successful petition every 30 years is not good odds.
However, the NMB Certification Letter, Attachment 2 to the ***** Letter of Agreement, will successfully accomplish the same purpose as a single-carrier petition, because the Company will consent to it, but only through a ratified agreement.


Even if ALPA were to prevail in its single-carrier petition, it only means that ALPA would be recognized as the bargaining representative for ***** pilots. It would not mean that the TSA ALPA contract would apply to *****. In fact, there would be no Agreement at all until the ***** pilots negotiated one. It would not mean that TSA pilots would perform ***** flying. It would not mean there would be a single seniority list. The ***** pilots would be able to establish their own MEC with their own leadership and bargain for their own Agreement. Clearly, the ***** Letter of Agreement accomplishes far more than what can be accomplished by a single-carrier petition.


If the TSA pilots fail to ratify the ***** Letter of Agreement, and the single-carrier petition would fail, Trans States Holdings and ***** will have no obligation to recognize ALPA, no obligation to combine the seniority lists, no obligation to give the ***** flying to Trans States pilots, and no obstacle to transferring future growth to *****. Trans States Holdings will not be bound by the TSA Agreement, and could freely create and acquire additional carriers. This is our contract and your exclusive decision. The MEC has gone to great lengths to provide you with the facts regarding the “***** Letter of Agreement” and the risks with not capturing *****. The Trans States MEC trusts that you will make the right decision, and we promise to stand behind your decision regardless of the outcome.

Fraternally,
Captain Dario Miranda
MEC Chairman

 

[redbook]

redbook:

You took a stand and you ended up losing the flying....is that a success?

Perhaps my post was too thorny, but I don't fault the regional pilots for flying the jets for "less".....but I do have a big problem with those who do the flying that someone else used to do but sleep soundly and then get PO'ed when someone else does it to them. That is why I consider them to be hypocrites.

In theory, every regional airline is an "alter-ego"....

A350

A350,

I would hardly describe the gojet debacle a success. Does that mean that TSA pilots should not have taken a stand? No.

I don't think you could characterize regional flying for a mainline partner as the same as an airline, creating an alter ego, solely to whipsaw its own employees.

The gojet pilots knowingly joined an alter ego. Regional pilots joined a regional airline. Conflating the two doesn't work.

 

[redbook]

So Redbook, enlighten us. was this grievance ever heard? If so how was it resolved? Clearly if ALPA was right the grievance would have resolved the issue in your favor, yet it did not. Redbook you continue to use name calling and pure BS propaganda because you have no facts to back up your claims. Once again you lose.

Theo,

because TSA holdings was able to circumvent the intent of their agreement with tsa doesn't change a thing. The gojet pilots knew they were joining an alter ego before, during and after the decision of the NMB. Simply by changing the language from Trans States Airlines to Trans States Holdings and poof.......magic.

I guess that makes it groovy now. Nope. Sorry theo, you have put yourself in the situation of joining an alter ego. You lose.

 

[A350]

redbook:

The claims that gojets took jobs and reaped financial hardship on the TSA pilots could be the same claims that my union allowed other union pilots to replace me at my chosen profession. I suffered financially and my career took quite the dump and that was helped by the fact that the union allowed other union pilots to take my flying......

No difference in my opinion....it depends on your perspective.

I deem it hypocritical for someone to complain about their pain when they inflicted some of their own but because it is under the "auspices" of ALPA it is OK?

Nonsense.

A350

 

[redbook]

redbook:

The claims that gojets took jobs and reaped financial hardship on the TSA pilots could be the same claims that my union allowed other union pilots to replace me at my chosen profession. I suffered financially and my career took quite the dump and that was helped by the fact that the union allowed other union pilots to take my flying......

No difference in my opinion....it depends on your perspective.

I deem it hypocritical for someone to complain about their pain when they inflicted some of their own but because it is under the "auspices" of ALPA it is OK?

Nonsense.

A350

A350,

I don't think I am going to change your mind on this, so I will try and avoid going round and round. You don't see any difference between regional flying contracted by a mainline carrier and an alter ego whipsaw, and I do. Perspective, as you say. I have tried to focus on the alter ego issue solely, because the gojet pilots always want to muddy the waters and say, well, we are all guilty.

That is not to say, that I feel that ALPA has handled the growth of regionals beyond turboprops, providing true "regional" feed, to the current situation in an effective manner. But is the answer to fly even Larger, 70 seat jets for worse wages, etc...?

My confusion with your argument also arises when you say "capture the flying" (or words to that effect) in a previous post. That is exactly the sentiment echoed by ALPA. I disagree. Flying those airplanes for terrible wages and work rules is not ok, even if it is, as you say, under the auspices of ALPA. Thanks for taking the time to respond, even if I disagree wholeheartedly.

 

[Shrek]

Hey GoJet.............how is that contract coming along?

 

[A350]

redbook:

We will have to agree to disagree.....however we agree on more than you think. Flying has always been a dog eat dog world, which is why I think TSA made a tactical mistake fighting the addition of the larger jets. Get the jets and drop the hammer.

The Mesa guys should have all bid the new planes as well. It would have kept them all employed, kept them all union, and kept the group together. Instead, they put a wedge in their own group.

A tactical mistake on their advisors part perhaps.

A thank you for discussing this without talking about my mother.....

A350

 

[theo]

Theo,

because TSA holdings was able to circumvent the intent of their agreement with tsa doesn't change a thing. The gojet pilots knew they were joining an alter ego before, during and after the decision of the NMB. Simply by changing the language from Trans States Airlines to Trans States Holdings and poof.......magic.

I guess that makes it groovy now. Nope. Sorry theo, you have put yourself in the situation of joining an alter ego. You lose.

Whose intent was circumvented? Do you think the Holding Company planned on giving up their right to make decisions in the best interest of the company? If your union had negotiated such an agreement you would have prevailed in court or in the grievance process. You keep saying things like should have. You still don't understand that the intent is clear in agreements. It is not a technicality that allowed this it was your own union, and the pilots who voted to not do the GoJet flying when you had the chance. Now because you miscalculated in your strategy you want to use fuzzy logic of your interpretation of intent. Sorry, once again your arguments hold no logic or fact.

 

[bizzum]

bizzum,

I have but one question HOW OLD ARE YOU ?

Huh? Don't really get that one....

 

[redbook]

redbook:

We will have to agree to disagree.....however we agree on more than you think. Flying has always been a dog eat dog world, which is why I think TSA made a tactical mistake fighting the addition of the larger jets. Get the jets and drop the hammer.

The Mesa guys should have all bid the new planes as well. It would have kept them all employed, kept them all union, and kept the group together. Instead, they put a wedge in their own group.

A tactical mistake on their advisors part perhaps.

A thank you for discussing this without talking about my mother.....

A350

Likewise A350. I enjoyed your posts and gained from your perspective.

 

[redbook]

Whose intent was circumvented? Do you think the Holding Company planned on giving up their right to make decisions in the best interest of the company? If your union had negotiated such an agreement you would have prevailed in court or in the grievance process. You keep saying things like should have. You still don't understand that the intent is clear in agreements. It is not a technicality that allowed this it was your own union, and the pilots who voted to not do the GoJet flying when you had the chance. Now because you miscalculated in your strategy you want to use fuzzy logic of your interpretation of intent. Sorry, once again your arguments hold no logic or fact.

The holding company planned on giving up their.....?????

I can't even follow you theo. The holding company is just a Frank Lorenzo type tool. (kind of like you)

I guess he would be a hero of yours, right?

 

[theo]

The holding company planned on giving up their.....?????

I can't even follow you theo. The holding company is just a Frank Lorenzo type tool. (kind of like you)

I guess he would be a hero of yours, right?

Why would you think that? Just because I wont let you get away with
misinformation and sour grapes because you screwed up your chance
at GoJet flying. Sorry once again your wrong.

 

[redbook]

Why would you think that? Just because I wont let you get away with
misinformation and sour grapes because you screwed up your chance
at GoJet flying. Sorry once again your wrong.

Misinformation was that rambling bs you spewed.

No chance for alter ego pilots. Sorry.

 

[theo]

Misinformation was that rambling bs you spewed.

No chance for alter ego pilots. Sorry.

Really? What part was misinformation? Was it the fact you voted down the chance to do the GoJet flying? Was it the fact that the NMB and your own union said that ALPA had no right to the GoJet flying if you voted it down? Enlighten me as to the misinformation you are referring to? Once again your wrong.

 

[redbook]

Really? What part was misinformation? Was it the fact you voted down the chance to do the GoJet flying? Was it the fact that the NMB and your own union said that ALPA had no right to the GoJet flying if you voted it down? Enlighten me as to the misinformation you are referring to? Once again your wrong.

A chance to do the flying?

Uhh, no. Gojet is an alter ego designed to whipsaw the TSA pilots. By "taking" the "chance" as you call it, we would have been whipsawed by the likes of you.

No thanks theo. Enjoy your alter ego career.

 

[acpilot]

Honestly, pilots are a dime a dozen these days. We get paid what the market will bear and that's that; there will always be someone willing to do the job for less money...ALWAYS...and we know that. A lot of you guys seem to be getting mad at people acting in their own best interest which, some argue, is exactly what they should do. For many, the regionals ARE just a stepping stone, not a career (I know I wouldn't want to retire in an RJ of some sort). They DO NOT care about anything but fast upgrades and PIC turbine, and how can you fault them? Some see this as detrimental to the industry as a whole...ok, maybe it is. In my opinion it's not their fault. The real problem is that there are simply too many pilots vying for a finite number of positions creating an extremely competitive job market. Everone is willing to accept just a little less then the next guy. The regionals would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS to pay more that what they think is the minimum required (a "fair price," as they call it) to keep pilots on staff. It seems unfair and wrong, I know. Those who have families and need the money suffer while the young, unmarried “kids” get exactly what they want: free flight time. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not happy with the regional carriers at all, I can't stand them). Where do all these low time F/O’s willing to work for pennies come from anyway? I'm sure I'll catch h3ll for this...

 

[rtmcfi]

acpilot-
You can't stand regionals, yet here you are on a thread that is seven pages deep? Why are you here? Equally important, where have you been? It is a competitive market......if you happen to be trying to hire someone to fly an RJ for dirt wages. Mins are dropping like crazy. Hiring bonuses are sprouting up.

 

[acpilot]

...i passed that around to regional friends of mine, they seem to agree.

 

[theo]

A chance to do the flying?

Uhh, no. Gojet is an alter ego designed to whipsaw the TSA pilots. By "taking" the "chance" as you call it, we would have been whipsawed by the likes of you.

No thanks theo. Enjoy your alter ego career.

Couldnt find any misinformation? Did'nt think so...Redbook is wrong again, and one final question. As you say again "NO Thanks' to the Gojet flying what are you bitching about..you still say you don't want it. Redbook is confused again.

 

[johndt]

there will always be someone willing to do the job for less money.

It's not about taking a job 4 less; it's about taking a job at an alter ego carrier being used as a whipsaw -- period.

I won't soon forget and there are a lot of others who won't either.

Fly somewhere else; it's not exactly a tight job market right now.