Go Jet Airlines, a reasonable option or a way to the blacklist?

[great cornholio]

You know its amazing that our unions havent learned from the original Continental, Freedom, Open Sky(British Airways alter ego) and Gojets etc. How ever you feel about the issue, same airline, different airlines what ever. The point is every contract signed from here on out should have a provision stating that any flying done for this company or any holding company that is set up by our company will be done by (insert pilot group name). If a holding company aquires (insert airline name) the pilot seniority list will be merged.

Skywest aquisition of ASA would have forced a merger of the pilot list taking away any possibility of whipsaw. TSA could have set up GoJets to get around the american scope issues but the pilots would have been on TSA master seniority list like RAH. Once delta gets done with the NWA aquisiton Mesaba, Comair, and Compass would be forced to merge seniority list.

TSA did have that in the CBA. I forget the exact wording in the CBA but it was there. Althought to get around that HK formed TSA Holdings and then "sold" TSA Airlines to TSA Holdings and then TSA Holdings formed Gojet. So since the CBA didn't specify TSA Holdings HK was able to get around it as seen by the NMB. As its been said the NMB has seen it as a seperate operation, but that doesn't mean that it was wasn't achieved in a shady way by HK.

 

[BoDEAN]

Does Go Jets allow you to continue to hold your seniority number at another airline while on furlough?

 

[CX880]

TSA did have that in the CBA. I forget the exact wording in the CBA but it was there. Althought to get around that HK formed TSA Holdings and then "sold" TSA Airlines to TSA Holdings and then TSA Holdings formed Gojet. So since the CBA didn't specify TSA Holdings HK was able to get around it as seen by the NMB. As its been said the NMB has seen it as a seperate operation, but that doesn't mean that it was wasn't achieved in a shady way by HK.

What is your point? Nobody is debating the existence of GJ. In order for TSH to fly CRJ7s you need a seprate certificate than TSA.

 

[Flyer1015]

CX880, your pathetic attempts of justifying GoJets is getting really old. The bottom line is still that GoJets was an alter-ego carrier, formed initially as NO union, and simply to bust the TSA pilot group. Anyone taking jobs at GoJets should have known what they were getting into. And use common sense: union carrier laying off, holding company of said carrier forms non-union GoJets, GoJets non-union carrier hires pilots, while union pilots at TSA continue getting laid off.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Sorry i didnt respond I kinda forgot that i posted on this thread.

I know the background of TSA and GoJets I was offered a job with TSA before I took my current job and i did alot of research on the company and the issues surrounding it. I also understand all of the setting up of the holding company. Thats why I mentioned that exact wording in my post.

I also understand all of the GoJets pilots thinking my post was directed at them it wasn't. Im saying that this division within the pilot groups would have never existed had scope been ironclad from the start. It would have forced TSA holdings to bring the aircraft on to GoJets(needed for legal reason with AA) but flown by 1 single unified list. Even GoJets pilots can't argue that would have been a bad thing. Everyone employed by GoJets now would still have been hired just on to 1 seniority list.

I think scope is often overlooked by pilot groups and quite frankly I believe that it is the most important issue in our contracts.

As far as what would I be willing to give up? Im not sure thats much of an issue for other groups. Let me explain. The negotiating capital required to pull freedom, eagle, and republic under their respective single pilot list was required because those different groups were already separate before the contract was signed. So yes it would be hard for TSA to bring it all back under one list.

What im suggesting is lets say another pilot group comes up for contract negotiations that doesnt already have an alter ego or separate pilot group set up. To get all flying done by this company or any holding company written into the contract should not require as much concession.

To answer your question more directly I believe scope is so important I would absolutely give up a few dollars of pay to secure that. If you have ironclad scope it would solve alot of the us versus them issue that keep pay down at the levels they are now. Solve scope and you would instantly solve many other issues around the industry. Once scope is solved the pilot groups can begin to solve other issues within the profession instead of fighting each other.

Unfortunately it started with the outsourcing of RJ's. I think most mainline pilot groups really regret that now. So what im suggesting now is lets make sure we learn from our mistakes and try and get ahead of Management on this. I think the biggest scope issues facing us ahead are Holding companies.

 

[siucavflight]

^As much as I dont like to say it, I believe that your user name disqualifies you from having any logical thought.

 

[ALIMBO]

^^^^You are so right my friend!

 

[CX880]

CX880, your pathetic attempts of justifying GoJets is getting really old. The bottom line is still that GoJets was an alter-ego carrier, formed initially as NO union, and simply to bust the TSA pilot group. Anyone taking jobs at GoJets should have known what they were getting into. And use common sense: union carrier laying off, holding company of said carrier forms non-union GoJets, GoJets non-union carrier hires pilots, while union pilots at TSA continue getting laid off.

GJ was formed so TSA pilots could fly CRJ7s, they said no. Everything else you said abovove is just factually untrue. All of that would be true if GJ was still a non union airline offering no work rules. In reality, it's union with way better work rules and management/employee relations than TSA. What happened in 05 is of no consequence to current and future GJ pilots. Please get over it

 

[Flyer1015]

=

All of that would be true if GJ was still a non union airline offering no work rules. In reality, it's union with way better work rules and management/employee relations than TSA. What happened in 05 is of no consequence to current and future GJ pilots. Please get over it

GoJets is uion now, but initially you were a non-union alter-ego that grew at the expense of a union carrier. People don't forget. You think a girl forgets a rapists who raped her, even if it was back in 2005? No, she doesn't. She will remember, she will always remember.

 

[CX880]

=

GoJets is uion now, but initially you were a non-union alter-ego that grew at the expense of a union carrier. People don't forget. You think a girl forgets a rapists who raped her, even if it was back in 2005? No, she doesn't. She will remember, she will always remember.

I know how outsiders like to bash on these boards. Tell me how GJ has screwed you over, personal case, please. Don't tell me about a TSA example because they did that to themselves, GJ was formed with their input, you can't blame someone in class at GJ right now for what happened in 05.

Plenty of airlines have "raped" fellow pilots and the industry in general. I can think of a few that have survived, particularly one where people would kill to get a class date. I'm sure the pilots applying are not thinking about how the place was started as long as it's a decent place now. As long as it's not struck work, I'm not a union henchman, so who cares where I find work. Please.

 

[Flyer1015]

I know how outsiders like to bash on these boards. Tell me how GJ has screwed you over, personal case, please.

You affected me because your airline's actions were a backstab to every ALPA regional carrier out there. It makes it that much harder for us to fight and get a new contract, when they know that there are wh0res out there willing to fly for some of the cheapest 70 seat wages.

Don't tell me about a TSA example because they did that to themselves, GJ was formed with their input, you can't blame someone in class at GJ right now for what happened in 05.

I won't blame them for what happened in 2005, but I will blame them for continuing to belittle our profession, and for taking a job at an alter-ego carrier. These pilots should know better.

Plenty of airlines have "raped" fellow pilots and the industry in general. I can think of a few that have survived, particularly one where people would kill to get a class date. I'm sure the pilots applying are not thinking about how the place was started as long as it's a decent place now. As long as it's not struck work, I'm not a union henchman, so who cares where I find work. Please.

Sorry, GoJets stands alone. Name another situaion where an airline holding company *initially* formed a non-union alter ego carrier.

 

[CX880]

You affected me because your airline's actions were a backstab to every ALPA regional carrier out there. It makes it that much harder for us to fight and get a new contract, when they know that there are wh0res out there willing to fly for some of the cheapest 70 seat wages.

Again, I ask again. How have we affected you. Don't tell me theory. And by the way most have it in their scope that one list has to exist even if there are separate certificates. So I'm not sure how GJ would even apply. Also it's very ironic how management is paying us even more with a new contract than TSA, so I'm not sure how we're "wh0res".

Sorry, GoJets stands alone. Name another situaion where an airline holding company *initially* formed a non-union alter ego carrier.

It's not an alter ego. That was established long ago in courts. Same was Republic, Shuttle. GJ is a certificate for TSH to fly CRJ7s. Nothing more.

-------------

 

[Freight Dog]

Flyer1015, if I see it correctly, GoJet pay is on par with the rest of the subcontrated feeder carriers. I don't know about GoJet work rules, but from the sound of it, it sounds like it's on par with the rest. So I'm curious to know how is it that they're screwing you over.

As for your example of little girls "not forgetting who raped them" I say GOOD... you shouldn't. It was crappy scope clauses and management. On the other hand, I know at least at my former carrier, thanks to formation of GoJet, we improved our scope because it pointed out vulnerability of our then-current scope.

Another point about you bashing other pilots choosing to go there these days.... ever think about furloughees, especially say UAL furloughs who are very much pro-ALPA, going there and the effect they would have there? Or what about those ATA boys and girls? Ever wonder if they'd bring about the change at GoJet to work to bring all TSAH pilots under one umbrella? Denying them jumpseats or alienating them are a helluva way to ensure that it never happens.

See... too many "profession defenders" are just too myopic to see the big picture.

 

[Flyer1015]

It's not an alter ego. That was established long ago in courts. Same was Republic, Shuttle. GJ is a certificate for TSH to fly CRJ7s. Nothing more.

Yes it is an alter ego. Republic and Shuttle were not an example of a non-union alter ego. It was on the same list for pilots. Not the same situation.

Flyer1015, if I see it correctly, GoJet pay is on par with the rest of the subcontrated feeder carriers. I don't know about GoJet work rules, but from the sound of it, it sounds like it's on par with the rest. So I'm curious to know how is it that they're screwing you over.

It's how GoJets came about to be that is NOT on par with the rest of the regionals. It was specifically formed by Hulas as a non-union alter ego carrier as a union busting move. It hired non union pilots, grew/expanded while the union company of the same holding company, shrunk.

Another point about you bashing other pilots choosing to go there these days.... ever think about furloughees, especially say UAL furloughs who are very much pro-ALPA, going there and the effect they would have there? Or what about those ATA boys and girls? Ever wonder if they'd bring about the change at GoJet to work to bring all TSAH pilots under one umbrella? Denying them jumpseats or alienating them are a helluva way to ensure that it never happens.

They will become wh0res for doing so. Bring all TSAH pilots under one umbrella?! Hahaha, no. That chance came back when GoJets was first forming. They said no. Then they went on, non-union, until even THEY got Hula-cized. After they couldn't take it anymore, they got a union.

I know plenty of pilots that carry a "list" and will deny jumpseaters if they are on the "list." And, I also know pilots who will deny jumpseats to GoJets. It's a necessary evil.

 

[CX880]

Y


They will become wh0res for doing so. Bring all TSAH pilots under one umbrella?! Hahaha, no. That chance came back when GoJets was first forming. They said no. Then they went on, non-union, until even THEY got Hula-cized. After they couldn't take it anymore, they got a union.

See this is the reason why someone with no knowledge of TSA and TSH, should stay in the side lines and just SFTU instead of making up ridiculous spews such as the above. But then again, how would you know if you weren't there. Do you think they happened to became union by chance? You don't know or have no idea what the terms were under creation of the seniority list. So STFU.

Flyer1505, you're completely wrong on GJ. By your alterego mentality, it would mean that if TSA pilots voted yes for the flying, they would have had to fly for the non-union alter ego certificate. Is that what you're trying to say? People are confusing GJ the company, with GJ, the pilots. GJ's creation isn't in dispute, its the seniority list that is the issue. TSA pilots under one list, would have had to transfer to the GJ certificate anyways. Going through another ground school and training. GJ was created before they asked TSA pilots if they wanted to fly not after they voted no to CRJ7 flying.