GM Flight Dept?

[SansPlane]

NOW - where those 3 faulted this week - they didn't have an explanation for the angry public. They should have been briefed on this.

[FONT=&quot]These three are leaders of businesses that employ close to 1/2 million employees. They are experienced executives of businesses “possibly” worth billions of dollars and you think they should have been briefed on why they use a corporate jet? If they can’t answer these “hardball” questions, then perhaps they need to reassinged to the factory floor. Surely G200 you must be kidding…[/FONT]

 

[Gulfstream 200]

[FONT=&quot]These three are leaders of businesses that employ close to 1/2 million employees. They are experienced executives of businesses “possibly” worth billions of dollars and you think they should have been briefed on why they use a corporate jet? If they can’t answer these “hardball” questions, then perhaps they need to reassinged to the factory floor. Surely G200 you must be kidding…[/FONT]

Why would I be kidding?....

They have many other things on their agenda, is it not uncommon to be briefed on what to expect at each and every meeting...expecially when being thrown in front of a group of ultra-liberal congressmen while you are asking for money.

Since this happened, every news site has thrown corporate aviation onto the front page every day. Not good for our business at all

The whole world is watching, be prepared. These fools sat there like deer in headlights.

I agree, its not a hard answer - just one they obviously never thought about...and thats too bad.

 

[SSDD]

Pretty long list of failures. I'm not familiar with a lot of them, but I will say that the ones I'm familiar with were mismanaged to an almost criminal degree. They should fail.

As far as the auto makers, let them file ch11. If they can reorganize and make the require changes, then good for them. If not then, there will always be a market for good vehicles.

Its funny how when this stuff starts to hit close to home, we get defensive. You appear to be a corporate pilot, so you want to defend the use of airplanes in business. As I said in my original response, I don't think government should have rescued airlines either. So my feelings on this are that as long as they're profitable, then what they do with that money is between them and the shareholders, but when they come asking for a government hand out...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Its funny how when this stuff starts to hit close to home, we get defensive. You appear to be a corporate pilot, so you want to defend the use of airplanes in business.

You do know that you are posting on a corporate aviation board?....of course Im defensive about Corporate Aircraft usage - its how most of us here make our living!

 

[SSDD]

The fact that you are a corporate pilot shouldn't keep you from telling right from wrong. I do know the value of corporate aviation, as I have done some over the years. But again, my point is that government should not be in the business of bailing our private corporations.

 

[LJ45]

I know if they paid me $21 million per year, I would have the answers to everything. Surely I could tell them how corporate aviation is used in our company and the cost vs. benefits of such.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The fact that you are a corporate pilot shouldn't keep you from telling right from wrong. I do know the value of corporate aviation, as I have done some over the years. But again, my point is that government should not be in the business of bailing our private corporations.

I don't know of many private corporations looking for bailouts.

They are public, F,GM each have the ability to rock the economy far harder by going to zero than by getting some help. I think everyone is equally frustrated with it. This if far from just affecting corporate pilots, its hitting everyone.

Anyhow, its a pointless arguement - the big 3 will get gvt help - this is a guarantee with the existing congress and incoming administration.

Interesting times. Hopefully we are around the bottom now.

 

[Freight Dog]

Interesting times. Hopefully we are around the bottom now.

Fat chance there... All these layoffs you just pointed out above were just announced fairly recently.

Wait till they actually happen... We're nowhere near the bottom, my friend. This is gonna suck BIG TIME!

 

[54fighting]

Let's just play the devil's advocate. Let's say that we are at a 180 from where we are right now, record profits everywhere. The big 3 are summoned to the hill for some meetings.....does the fact that they flew in on their corporate jets get the soundbite? I don't think so. This was done purely as grandstanding and get a favorable public reaction. Looking at these Senators, $hit, they have an approval rating of like 5%. It cracked me up watching them turn all bada$$ and everything. Where they hell were they when this financial mess was going down.

Right now having a corporate flight department is the least of their problems.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I heard they are hiring? Anybody know anything?

Thanks

FLAME BAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:angryfire

 

[Raskal]

Let's just play the devil's advocate. Let's say that we are at a 180 from where we are right now, record profits everywhere. The big 3 are summoned to the hill for some meetings.....does the fact that they flew in on their corporate jets get the soundbite? I don't think so. This was done purely as grandstanding and get a favorable public reaction. Looking at these Senators, $hit, they have an approval rating of like 5%. It cracked me up watching them turn all bada$$ and everything. Where they hell were they when this financial mess was going down.

Right now having a corporate flight department is the least of their problems.

Agreed. The fact that most of those jackasses ride regularly on their 'supporters' jets is even more annoying. It was purely an attempt at getting some air time.

I think what bothers me the most is the lunacy of their argument not to approve the loans. Now that wall street is so entrenched in our government and has pushed manufacturing (specifically the auto industry) out of the government's bed it's as though it were never important.

The fact is the American people have been bent over and fukced so hard by this incredibly corrupt and worthless 'bailout' that they fail to see the importance of an industry that actually matters. I won't go on to far except to say the following about bankruptcy:

If GM files bankruptcy it is estimated that the case, at approximately 3 years, will cost the taxpayers $175 billion. That's just one of the 'three'.

Say GM goes under, estimates have put the cost in jobs anywhere from 1.5 to 3 million.

Tell me, what would the cost in jobs have been from allowing Behr Stearns or AIG to fail? Now that between the two of them they have received more than $100 billion (4 times the loan the auto industry has asked for) how many jobs have been saved? Of course, the "bailout" never was about saving jobs, was it? That isn't important.

 

[nerdpilot]

GM will be fine with or without the bailout. They are making Billions in other countries selling their crappy cars to countries that will build them much cheaper and loan their people money to buy them. This bail out will only prolong the agony of a failed business plan and I expect they will be back asking for more money a year later assuming they get the bailout. I think Ford has the only chance of staying afloat long term and Chrysler should be left to die since they dont have a Hybrid or any alternative fuel vehicle in stock or on the horizen..........Plus they hired the ex CEO of Home Depot to run their company. Everybody is overpaid at these companies from the top to the bottom and it doesnt look like the top will ever take a pay cut and the only way to cut the workers pay is to fill chapter 11 and void the union contracts.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Where they hell were they when this financial mess was going down.

Right now having a corporate flight department is the least of their problems.

Exactly.

Less than one year ago Chuck Schumer had F&F in his pocket - and was preaching that there was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE HOUSING MARKET.

 

[G4G5]

I heard they are hiring? Anybody know anything?

Thanks

Yes they are:
Looking for CEO, CFO and New BOD. Must be willing to put up with pointless Congressional Hearings that insult your company, your integrity, your managment, your employees, your products and just about everything that you are doing to try to keep your company viable for the future.

All while billions are handed out to the likes of AIG.

Let's keep it in perspective, Citi Group, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo and Bank of America. ALL RECEIVED $25 BILLION in TARP FUNDS, EACH.

The Big Three COMBINED are asking for $25 Billion.

 

[SansPlane]

Let's keep it in perspective, Citi Group, JP Morgan Chase, Wells Fargo and Bank of America. ALL RECEIVED $25 BILLION in TARP FUNDS, EACH.

The Big Three COMBINED are asking for $25 Billion.

Perspective? “Intent” of the bank bail out was to free up money so you, I and businesses could borrow money. Money for the Big Three (one owned by PE btw – I think this matters) to keep companies in business that are not competitive is a pretty socialist agenda. I am not saying that socialism is good or bad, but this is a corporate aviation forum and the closer we get to socialism the less corporate aviation there will be.

 

[G4G5]

Perspective? “Intent” of the bank bail out was to free up money so you, I and businesses could borrow money. Money for the Big Three (one owned by PE btw – I think this matters) to keep companies in business that are not competitive is a pretty socialist agenda. I am not saying that socialism is good or bad, but this is a corporate aviation forum and the closer we get to socialism the less corporate aviation there will be.

You missed the "intent" of my post. The socialist genda is already inplace, the day the checks were written to AIG and the Banks.

The auto industry is not looking for a bail out (aka Socialist aganda as you suggest) they are looking for a bridge loan which is quite different then what the banks received.

If the purpose of the TARP was to keep the economy going, how does letting the big 3 go under help the economy?

 

[SansPlane]

how does letting the big 3 go under help the economy?

[FONT=&quot]Message to “industry” that they need to provide a product or service that people will buy – oh and then you have to manage the company. Message to the unions that their workers are NEVER worth triple time and that assembly line jobs should pay assembly line wages. Another message to unions – employees are just that, employees. Unions want companies to share the wealth. If turnabout is fair play, the Big 3 should be asking their employees to loan them the money to stay in business.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Example: I have been told that Ford distribution plant workers have always worked the day after Thanksgiving getting triple pay because their Union was able to negotiate this. I wonder how many union workers that make nefarious double or triple time pay are willing to pay double or triple to their waitress when they have that holiday meal or are they willing to pay their gardener double or triple time when they work on Martin Luther King Day etc. etc. etc… That’s what I thought.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]BTW - Wal-Mart is thriving in places like Dearborn, Michigan thanks in part to union wage auto workers that walk the talk...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Management is culpable as well, but the arrogant union leaders representing auto workers have led their workers down this path and I don’t mind seeing them walk off the cliff.


[/FONT]

 

[airplane wizard]

GM will be fine with or without the bailout. They are making Billions in other countries selling their crappy cars to countries that will build them much cheaper and loan their people money to buy them. This bail out will only prolong the agony of a failed business plan and I expect they will be back asking for more money a year later assuming they get the bailout. I think Ford has the only chance of staying afloat long term and Chrysler should be left to die since they dont have a Hybrid or any alternative fuel vehicle in stock or on the horizen..........Plus they hired the ex CEO of Home Depot to run their company. Everybody is overpaid at these companies from the top to the bottom and it doesnt look like the top will ever take a pay cut and the only way to cut the workers pay is to fill chapter 11 and void the union contracts.

GM is doing so well in China, why don't they go to the Chinese government for bailout money.

 

[airplane wizard]

You missed the "intent" of my post. The socialist genda is already inplace, the day the checks were written to AIG and the Banks.

The auto industry is not looking for a bail out (aka Socialist aganda as you suggest) they are looking for a bridge loan which is quite different then what the banks received.

If the purpose of the TARP was to keep the economy going, how does letting the big 3 go under help the economy?

I's funny how the banks didn't need a viable business plan to be bailed out but the car makers do

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

[FONT=&quot]Message to “industry” that they need to provide a product or service that people will buy – oh and then you have to manage the company. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Nice![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Message to the unions that their workers are NEVER worth triple time and that assembly line jobs should pay assembly line wages. [/FONT]

[/FONT]

So holidays that are days off are subject to straight time... then it really isn't a holiday is it?

If the company didn't think that triple pay was worth it... then why did they agree to it?



[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Another message to unions – employees are just that, employees. Unions want companies to share the wealth. If turnabout is fair play, the Big 3 should be asking their employees to loan them the money to stay in business.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

So I guess you aren't going to talk about excessive exec compensation...

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Example: I have been told that Ford distribution plant workers have always worked the day after Thanksgiving getting triple pay because their Union was able to negotiate this. [/FONT]

[/FONT]

Why would the company pay triple pay? The company can simple say the plant is closed Friday. Therefore no triple pay.

are you saying that production and company success is critical that Friday be worked. If it has that much value to the company, then should the company not pay for it?

If not, then don't open the plant that day. Keep in mind triple pay is allot cheaper than hiring more employees...



[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I wonder how many union workers that make nefarious double or triple time pay are willing to pay double or triple to their waitress when they have that holiday meal or are they willing to pay their gardener double or triple time when they work on Martin Luther King Day etc. etc. etc… That’s what I thought.[/FONT]

[/FONT]


Oranges to apples... if a restaurant wants to pay triple time to its waitstaff that is between restaurant management and its employees... It is not a customers responsibility...

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]BTW - Wal-Mart is thriving in places like Dearborn, Michigan thanks in part to union wage auto workers that walk the talk...[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Wal Mart thrives becomes they offer low prices. Now if you want to talk about the real price that is paid by us all.. that is a whole different thread...


[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Management is culpable as well, but the arrogant union leaders representing auto workers have led their workers down this path and I don’t mind seeing them walk off the cliff.[/FONT]

So management is responsible for their companies but it is really the unions fault...

Got it.

But let's get back to reality...

Fact is, if CorpAmerica invested in their most lucrative asset: employees, there would be no need to triple time...

If you design a great car, a great product that workers can be pride of, they won't reach into the negotiation table grab bag and get a hold of whatever they can.... like triple pay...


This is a true problem with our value system in America... as Paulson squanders the bailout loan and lines his Wall Street buddies pocket, you are chiding unions....


Unions don't run companies. CorpExecs do. And they really don't care about their best asset: people.

Since CorpAmerica Execs really only care about lining their pockets, golden parachutes and multi multi million dollar homes and NOT the company... how do you expect a union to negotiate?

Seems like you've fallen for it.... chide unions so the no one focuses on the real culprit... failed execs in CorpWorld...

You can't expect a CEO to reach into the company coffers and grab whatever he can, and expect the union not too......