Get ready for Age 67+

[Flopgut]

Bringupthebird,

I think you are dead on unfortunately.

Flopgut,

One can only hope you are long gone way before it happens. Your fellow employees thank you.

Oh yeah, He's certainly "dead on" if old guys keep calling the shots.

Watch as I beat a dead horse. Bringupthebird is a pragmatic. He's long on problems and has no answers. Gust Avrakotos described his type in Charlie Wilson's War: "He's a tool, he's a cake-eater, he's a clown, he's a bad station chief, and I don't like to cast aspertions on a guy but he's going to get us all killed". He's already decided health care is a target and that there is no more money available. He likes to believe that because it makes him more comfortable with the only real plan he has which is stick a knife in someone's back. He's a typical old guy type and an ALPA bootlicker. The problem is that there is a better way. You have to check out www.rrb.gov. Rail workers don't have this because they work for the railroad. In fact not all railroad workers get access to the RRB. They have this because they work under the RLA. RRB benefits have been recently strengthened and in fact ten years ago they lowered full retirement age. Any question one might have about health care, disability, survivor benefits, retirement income etc, etc is in there. There is no way airline workers should suffer another day under the RLA and not be included in RRB. But, the message falls on deaf, old ears. ALPA leaders realize RRB solves about half the problems that make up the need for the union. And, as it's always been, it's too easy to backstab. The baby boomers like easy...

 

[CesnaCaptn]

...unless the airlines just dump everyone into ObamaCare.

Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain how someone is dumped into ObamaCare?

 

[Bringupthebird]

No, old guys retire and young guys become old guys and adapt to the conditions as they exist, or else they don't retire (from an airline job at least).

Pragmatism

Pragmatism is a philosophical movement that includes those who claim that an ideology or proposition is true if it works satisfactorily, that the meaning of a proposition is to be found in the practical consequences of accepting it, and that unpractical ideas are to be rejected.

Go back to watching movies with your suspiciously nervous cat.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain how someone is dumped into ObamaCare?

Give yourself about 3 or 4 years and you'll understand it completely!

 

[Bringupthebird]

How come you didn't direct that comment at me? You and I have clashed on this topic many a time.
Is it because, due to the age 65 change, I've been furloughed for the last 2 1/2 years?

Parking all the 737s and furloughing 900 pilots probably has little to do with Age 65.

 

[filejw]

Here ya go boys...
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/422783-age-70-international-pilots.html

 

[Andy]

Parking all the 737s and furloughing 900 pilots probably has little to do with Age 65.

OK, I see that the whole training pipeline discussion was too complex for you.

 

[Metro752]

Let me stop you right there. That sh** isn't coming anytime soon and neither are the new rest rules.

I'd say you're correct on that; no changes to minimum requirements and no change to rest rules. Besides, I doubt that the regionals are having a hard time finding fully qualified pilots right now. Another year from now will be a different story.

Both of you are out of touch with what is going on.

The ATP/1500 rule is federal law, and would have to be amended to change.

Rest rules, who knows.

The regionals are having a hell of a time filling classes.

 

[flyboyike]

I was flying with one of our oldest the other day. He can't hear. I mean he really can't hear anything. He's got these hearing aids that are about a 50/50 at best. So we get to the gate and we see the captain who brought it in and he's another one our oldest pilots. For some reason he's lost his voice. He can't talk; He's just moving his mouth and gesturing trying to be apologetic as he attempts to describe what he just wrote up. His mouth is moving, but there is no noise coming out. So the hearing aid captain starts screwing with his ears trying to adjust the hearing aids. Nothing. The other FO and myself made eye contact and I could tell we were both thinking the same thing. We bolted. We were both sick of making up for these guys. The gate area was full of customers and the FAs were there. But the FAs left them as well. I think it took about ten minutes until they finally decided to write messages to each other on the paperwork. What's crazy is nobody can intervene on this kind of thing. They are both check airman. They have friends in the FAA and they make it clear they will retaliate if you have anything to critique them on. it's really screwed up...

Hilarious.

 

[flyboyike]

I'm sorry that you have to find out this way, but the US is an ICAO member

Which ostensibly means that the US can't be less restrictive than ICAO. We can be more restrictive than ICAO (e g have a lower age limit) all we want.

 

[flyboyike]

Wasn't the original argument that these guys needed "more time" to make up for lost pensions, access to health care, social security, etc.?

I've just seen most of these guys collect a bigger mortgage, another ex, and a 3rd car these last several years...

And a fifth boat.

 

[Andy]

Both of you are out of touch with what is going on.

The ATP/1500 rule is federal law, and would have to be amended to change.

Rest rules, who knows.

The regionals are having a hell of a time filling classes.

DOH! You are correct; I stand corrected. I show 1 Aug 2013 as implementation date. Is the FAA phasing this rule in over the next couple years? http://www.atpflightschool.com/airl.../1500-hour-rule/1500-hour-rule-explained.html

That'll get interesting. And bad news for those of us who don't want to see an age increase.

 

[laker4284]

Here ya go boys...
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/422783-age-70-international-pilots.html

This is your proof of a movement to age 70? A comment from 14 months ago on a rumor forum? If you sniff around a bit on Google, other search venues and chat with some of those who had some fingers in the pie you'd be relieved to know there is mo credible effort to change the age rule in this country. Maybe in the future, meaning years and years down the road. Maybe.

There's a lot of misinformation about age and pilots on this thread.

 

[Andy]

This is your proof of a movement to age 70? A comment from 14 months ago on a rumor forum? If you sniff around a bit on Google, other search venues and chat with some of those who had some fingers in the pie you'd be relieved to know there is mo credible effort to change the age rule in this country. Maybe in the future, meaning years and years down the road. Maybe.

There's a lot of misinformation about age and pilots on this thread.

Laker, I'm strongly opposed to any age increases. But this iteration will be different than the last age increase because the pilots will not be the impetus of another age change.
I've briefly illustrated why it's in management's best interest (huge reduction in training costs) and politicians' best interests (delayed social security/medicare payments) along with the fact that there have been no hull losses.
You may think that ALPO will fight another age increase tooth and nail. They may publicly. But I doubt that's what they'll say behind closed doors; in fact, they will likely supply congressional aides with talking points for another age increase.
I understand your skepticism. But that's the way the game's played in DC. I've been there and have had enough personal contacts to know how things really work.

The best argument for the anti-change crowd (me + many others) is to accept an incremental change rather than making a single large change. I think that a strong case could be built around an incremental change.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Hilarious.

So are cartoons and bedtime stories. This story is probably as fictional as those.

Which ostensibly means that the US can't be less restrictive than ICAO. We can be more restrictive than ICAO (e g have a lower age limit) all we want.

The problem with that is you run into a conundrum: Foreign airline Captains OVER age 65 will be allowed to exercise their licenses in US airspace. US Captains over 65 will be forbidden the same right/privilege by law.

Is that fair? You honestly mean to tell me you'd support that?

 

[Andy]

The problem with that is you run into a conundrum: Foreign airline Captains OVER age 65 will be allowed to exercise their licenses in US airspace. US Captains over 65 will be forbidden the same right/privilege by law.

Is that fair? You honestly mean to tell me you'd support that?

Fubi, rather than a lag between US ages increasing and ICAO ages increasing, I'd expect to see a more coordinated effort with the IATA as a driving force. I'd venture to guess that most pilots are unaware of the IATA, what they do, and who they represent. http://www.iata.org
There will be some concerns on how far the age can be increased which is why an incremental change would be the more palatable choice for all parties.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Agreed.

 

[Flopgut]

No, old guys retire and young guys become old guys and adapt to the conditions as they exist, or else they don't retire (from an airline job at least).



Go back to watching movies with your suspiciously nervous cat.

It's as though you want to be dumped into Obamacare?!

When I use the term pragmatic, I'm not trying to complement you. I know it's not the best term. But you are far too accepting of satisfactory in place of actual improvement.

There is a better way to do a lot of things. This profession is backward due to the lack of worker renewal. Look at how advanced the aircraft we all fly have gotten? Compare that with how we go to work and how we are paid. It's reactionary types like you that are holding us all back. I'd like to help you do the right thing and see increase.

Additionally, how are you so sure there won't be any new money to be made? The Chinese alone are going to hire 20k+ new pilots in the next ten years. Worldwide supply and demand will be a driver. You can make the age whatever you want, and you can whine and complain about being discriminated against, but you will not tell foreign carriers to hire pilots who are over 60. Let alone 65. So maybe you're too old to look to that sort of future? Too bad. At the wages you think we're stuck at right now, there won't be a US airline that can keep their pilots. It will be 5-8 years and you're still going to have be be fairly young, but there will be some opportunity.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Floppy,

You should head off to China to catch the front end of the hiring wave.

 

[Flopgut]

Probably will. But I'm not not quite done here. Understand that I want to vote on my contract first. Despite the best efforts of aged backbiters like you, I'm going to try and improve things. Failing that, there is a not too remote chance I will get to strike. Which will be a very good thing! I will leave. Pretty sure the old guys will hang on and keep it afloat (probably your plan, right?). Good for them; I wouldn't begrudge them that. All they have is a few short years. They can use them to clean up after my strike. Of course they won't have any work rules, and they will be chained to the oars for about 30% pay. Won't be pretty for old guys. But I'll sure enjoy watching it. It's going to be priceless to see pilots who are even more broke at 65 than they were at 60 begging anyone to let them fly longer.