Germanwings plane crashed intentionally by F/O

[tico]

The public views and pays pilots as if we're glorified bus drivers. We're now getting glorified bus drivers, with all of the requisite mental baggage, in this job. It's no longer a profession.

More than a few regional pilots with families are eligible for food stamps and far too many are employed without a four year degree. This is rapidly being turned into a trade, much like plumber or electrician rather than a skilled professional.

Andy----Union plumbers and electricians are highly skilled tradesman
that have better benefits and pensions than pilots have. What we need in this
job are fewer silver spoon management suck up college boys and more skilled
pilots.

 

[Brody1]

With the lengths certain governments AND the media will go through to paint radical muslims in a favorable light, I would not be surprised if the 'note' was planted - and is used as a decoy to steer this investigation away from Islam altogether. Since it has been determined (preliminary, but likely) a murder/suicide, it wouldn't be too difficult to steer the 'official story' in the direction that best suits the needs of those overseeing the investigation. Yes, I know it sounds a bit far-fetched. That is, until you take the time to look up the media's track record in covering stories that don't paint their favorite politicians and/or subjects in a favorable light. I realize it might just be a simple (yet tragic) case of an unqualified, depressed pilot committing the ultimate act of selfishness. With that said, I'm not buying it. This is too big, and reeks of jihadism. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . .

 

[GogglesPisano]

With the lengths certain governments AND the media will go through to paint radical muslims in a favorable light, I would not be surprised if the 'note' was planted - and is used as a decoy to steer this investigation away from Islam altogether. Since it has been determined (preliminary, but likely) a murder/suicide, it wouldn't be too difficult to steer the 'official story' in the direction that best suits the needs of those overseeing the investigation. Yes, I know it sounds a bit far-fetched. That is, until you take the time to look up the media's track record in covering stories that don't paint their favorite politicians and/or subjects in a favorable light. I realize it might just be a simple (yet tragic) case of an unqualified, depressed pilot committing the ultimate act of selfishness. With that said, I'm not buying it. This is too big, and reeks of jihadism. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck . . .

So Islamic terrorists take down a plane, and rather than take credit for it , they keep it a secret? To what end?

 

[Tripower455]

Kinda makes the security check point for pilots meaningless now.

No more now than ever.

 

[Tripower455]

This kid's college degree didn't prevent this tragedy from happening....but paying his dues over the years, like we did, might have. If he had been an instructor, cargo, regional or charter pilot for a number of years, someone might have picked up on his instability. At 600 hours, he wouldn't even have qualified to fly canceled checks in a Cessna 210.

Amen.

He might've still killed himself in an airplane at 600 hours, but it is far less likely that he'd have taken 150 people with him.

 

[Tripower455]

But you're not flying for a 121 carrier, nor are you transporting passengers, correct?

GMAFB.

I am a second generation airline pilot.

My old man had a 2 year degree and flew for Pan Am and then Delta for over 30 years.

I've got a 2 year degree as well, and while I was working on my (appropriately named) BS degree, was offered a ME 135 flying job, with, ironically, considering the subject of this thread, around 600 hours.

I was working as a mechanic at the time, and was incrementally doing more flying for the company (ferries, test flights etc), so at that point, they offered me a full time flying job.

I figured I could always go back to college down the road, but that flying opportunity was unlikely to be there 18 months down the road.

Looking back, that was one of the best decisions I've made in my career.

As much as I regret missing the "enlightenment" of that extra semester and a half, and not having a piece of parchment on my wall, that decision, in part, landed me a captain seat at a major 121 carrier for 29 of my 44 year airline (and one 121 cargo op) career.

 

[Av8rPHX]

Im so tired of the college degree argument that everyone gets a hard on over. A college degree does not make one a professional, all it says is that someone can read some material and pass a few exams...oh and rack up loads in student debt. I know plenty of "professions" that pay more than piloting and dont require a degree for that level of prestige. I have an AAS in Paramedicine and make more now than I would if i stayed in the airline game. Give me the pilot that has real "life" experience than the guy who partied his way through a 4 year institution any day. Now that Ive got that rant over, lets address the elephant in the room - mental health. Piloting, as with many other "macho" careers have always viewed any sort of weakness as taboo and something that is just not discussed out of fear of being punished (ie, having your medical pulled). Ive seen it far too often in EMS where someone was afraid of discussing their issues so they overdosed on lead instead. I know as a first responder we have options available to us to confidentiality discuss issues that may be affecting us without involving our agency. Maybe its time to initiate something like that in other sectors such as aviation....and no I dont mean company sponsored EAP programs. Those are garbage.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Andy----Union plumbers and electricians are highly skilled tradesman
that have better benefits and pensions than pilots have. What we need in this
job are fewer silver spoon management suck up college boys and more skilled
pilots.

Hear-Hear

 

[Dornier 335]

Im so tired of the college degree argument that everyone gets a hard on over. A college degree does not make one a professional, all it says is that someone can read some material and pass a few exams...oh and rack up loads in student debt. I know plenty of "professions" that pay more than piloting and dont require a degree for that level of prestige. I have an AAS in Paramedicine and make more now than I would if i stayed in the airline game. Give me the pilot that has real "life" experience than the guy who partied his way through a 4 year institution any day. Now that Ive got that rant over, lets address the elephant in the room - mental health. Piloting, as with many other "macho" careers have always viewed any sort of weakness as taboo and something that is just not discussed out of fear of being punished (ie, having your medical pulled). Ive seen it far too often in EMS where someone was afraid of discussing their issues so they overdosed on lead instead. I know as a first responder we have options available to us to confidentiality discuss issues that may be affecting us without involving our agency. Maybe its time to initiate something like that in other sectors such as aviation....and no I dont mean company sponsored EAP programs. Those are garbage.

After you successfully pass various tests and you receive the green light to start pilot training at the LH pilot school, you end up with over ?100,000+ in the hole. The pilot school is not recognized as a college equivalent, even in Germany. LH will not accept anybody older than ~29 and with a pilot rating higher than private. Their belief is that thorough training can replace flight experience. It's the old ab initio vs flight experience argument AND that they have the best policy in the world (seriously!). To all those of you that read this, you are nothing more than garbage.

 

[JD2003]

You guys should smoke some really good marijuana, take a couple weeks off, and fukk the airlines.

 

[Dornier 335]

And you should keep your comments to yourself and some enough weed to see your b@lls turn black from testicular cancer!

 

[two(2)%]

Im so tired of the college degree argument that everyone gets a hard on over. A college degree does not make one a professional, all it says is that someone can read some material and pass a few exams...oh and rack up loads in student debt. I know plenty of "professions" that pay more than piloting and dont require a degree for that level of prestige. I have an AAS in Paramedicine and make more now than I would if i stayed in the airline game. Give me the pilot that has real "life" experience than the guy who partied his way through a 4 year institution any day. Now that Ive got that rant over, lets address the elephant in the room - mental health. Piloting, as with many other "macho" careers have always viewed any sort of weakness as taboo and something that is just not discussed out of fear of being punished (ie, having your medical pulled). Ive seen it far too often in EMS where someone was afraid of discussing their issues so they overdosed on lead instead. I know as a first responder we have options available to us to confidentiality discuss issues that may be affecting us without involving our agency. Maybe its time to initiate something like that in other sectors such as aviation....and no I dont mean company sponsored EAP programs. Those are garbage.

Much of that is true homes, but you are a quitter. Shoulda stayed bro, its all gettn good now!

Two

 

[Bringupthebird]

So where do you think the super-man pilots of the future will come from? When will they have to do more than program a box and push the AP button? Flying boxes? Instructing? Crop Dusting? Who is going to invest $100K in ratings either through college programs or ATP and then make the conscious decision to take the long tough slog through all the crummy jobs just to hone their skill while their classmates unpack the Van Husen Aviator and run off to fly a shiny RJ where they can hone their skills by loading the box and pushing the AP button?

I was told recently that 50 flight slots at the AF Academy went unfilled because those attending would prefer to go into a more rewarding profession post-service.

Perhaps the drones are showing up right on time!

 

[Av8rPHX]

Google has already made a self driving car.....its not too far fetched.

 

[Nindiri]

Are people out there actually paying 100K for their ratings?

If pilots are that gullible, I suppose it would help explain our current SWAPA contract negotiations.

 

[Ty Webb]

I was told recently that 50 flight slots at the AF Academy went unfilled because those attending would prefer to go into a more rewarding profession post-service.

Perhaps the drones are showing up right on time!

Hey, maybe it's not too late for me to redo my misspent Ute.... and go to the AF Academy, afterall. I might as well, been paying for everybody else to go. :bomb:

 

[tico]

Damn good idea Ty.....I will go with ya....they owe it to us

 

[Ty Webb]

"Back to School" . . . AFA style. :beer:

Anyone seen my hacky-sack? :erm:

:laugh:

 

[Flyer1015]

But he would never have been flying 121 in the US with 800 hours.

I don't know how you or anyone else thinks that we're going to be viewed as more than bus drivers without requiring a college degree. "Sure, it's a hard job, but you don't have to be educated to do it". Great. All I need to know is how to apply for foodstamps.
Low barriers to entry = low wages.

These days, yes. But remember we were hiring 250 hr pilots into RJs back in 2006-2007. And way back in the day certain mainline carriers were hiring low time pilots directly into the SO/FE position.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hmmmmm. Now some internet chatter that he MAY HAVE BEEN a jihadi? Still waiting for the German investigators to confirm garden-variety nutbaggery or more of the same from the "religion of peace."

Are you serious? 149 innocent people are dead and you are bickering if it was dirka dirka dirka or just a garden-variety nutbaggery? Let me guess, Muslims can't be mentally ill or unstable and so it must have been terrorism?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I think your assertion is absolutely incorrect.

When cockpit doors became hardened, the presence of another person in the cockpit was to ensure that if the remaining flight crew member became incapacitated, there would be someone on the flight deck to open the door in the case of emergency.

You can access the flight deck in case of incapacitation, you don't need a cabin attendant in there to do that..! But you do need a person there to look through the peephole if you don't have security cameras...!

All this discussion about having two people on the flight deck as a way to stop a lunatic hell bent on destruction is ridiculous to the max.

You really think that a C/A would prevent this from happening again? That is just plain stupid! As she comes in since you are already doing your Darth Vader impersonation (or at least you should be) with your O2 mask on, you just reach up and start dumping the pressure, when the bells and whistles start ringing you tell her to sit down and strap her seatbelt.., Guess what? On most narrow body A/C's you just added another blockage to the entry to the flight deck.., she provided it!
Now you start an emergency descent and bellow 10K you push your favorite rudder all the way to the wall...! Voil?! Big hole on the ground with two people on the flight deck and all....!

We need to address the real problem..., something that has been a mayor problem for years now and it is the lack of reliability of the "self reporting" system that we have on this industry.., it doesn't work for alcohol nor drug abuse, and it certainly hasn't worked for mental health issues.

If there would be a system in place where the doctor can communicate directly to the company when they ground a pilot for any reason, this would have not happened, the reporting doesn't even have to break patient confidentiality, it doesn't even have to explain the reasons to the company.

 

[pilotgolfer]

You can access the flight deck in case of incapacitation, you don't need a cabin attendant in there to do that..! But you do need a person there to look through the peephole if you don't have security cameras...!

You really think that a C/A would prevent this from happening again? That is just plain stupid! As she comes in since you are already doing your Darth Vader impersonation (or at least you should be) with your O2 mask on, you just reach up and start dumping the pressure, when the bells and whistles start ringing you tell her to sit down and strap her seatbelt.., Guess what? On most narrow body A/C's you just added another blockage to the entry to the flight deck.., she provided it!
Now you start an emergency descent and bellow 10K you push your favorite rudder all the way to the wall...! Voil?! Big hole on the ground with two people on the flight deck and all....!

.

You sound like you've thought this through a little too well.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I just don't believe in "feel good, knee jerk" solutions that don't really work

 

[Flyer1015]

You can access the flight deck in case of incapacitation, you don't need a cabin attendant in there to do that..! But you do need a person there to look through the peephole if you don't have security cameras...!

All this discussion about having two people on the flight deck as a way to stop a lunatic hell bent on destruction is ridiculous to the max.

You really think that a C/A would prevent this from happening again? That is just plain stupid! As she comes in since you are already doing your Darth Vader impersonation (or at least you should be) with your O2 mask on, you just reach up and start dumping the pressure, when the bells and whistles start ringing you tell her to sit down and strap her seatbelt.., Guess what? On most narrow body A/C's you just added another blockage to the entry to the flight deck.., she provided it!
Now you start an emergency descent and bellow 10K you push your favorite rudder all the way to the wall...! Voil?! Big hole on the ground with two people on the flight deck and all....!

We need to address the real problem..., something that has been a mayor problem for years now and it is the lack of reliability of the "self reporting" system that we have on this industry.., it doesn't work for alcohol nor drug abuse, and it certainly hasn't worked for mental health issues.

If there would be a system in place where the doctor can communicate directly to the company when they ground a pilot for any reason, this would have not happened, the reporting doesn't even have to break patient confidentiality, it doesn't even have to explain the reasons to the company.

From all accounts he was insecure according to two ex-gfs. One FA and one teacher. I highly doubt he would have done this if there was a woman who was standing there with him. People with insecurities don't like someone standing there watching them. IMO he carried this out successfully because he was alone. I don't think a FA can stop pilot suicide, but if you look at historical examples: EgyptAir 990, Silk Air 185, LAM Mozambique, and now this GermanWings, in each of these cases the suicidal pilot was alone and the other taking a bathroom break when the suicidal pilot started their action.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Nonsense...! On the Fedex incident there were three other able bodied crew members on the flight deck and I don't have to remind anyone of how close this individual came to accomplish his evil task....! We are not addressing the problem, trying to find "feel good" solutions that somebody with the intent of doing harm will find very easy ways around it.

Why was this individual on the flight deck that day after he was found medically unfit? That is the problem that needs to be addressed. You brought very good points actually, Why were those pilots on those flight decks that day? In everyone of those cases the signs were ignored..., in the Egypt Air case in particular that pilot shouldn't have been flying at all..! His issues were well known by the company.

 

[tico]

Nonsense...! On the Fedex incident there were three other able bodied crew members on the flight deck and I don't have to remind anyone of how close this individual came to accomplish his evil task....! We are not addressing the problem, trying to find "feel good" solutions that somebody with the intent of doing harm will find very easy ways around it.
.

Surely you are not comparing the fedex incident to the tightly controlled environment of a passenger carrier.....Had a flight attendant been in that flight deck, this would not have happened...period....as with all the other pilot suicides you are dealing with introverted cowards....who dont act outuntil they are alone...

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I think the idea here is mitigation - having another crewmember on the flightdeck in the absence of another isn't a "feel good" solution, it's not a solution, it's an additional layer that makes such an action more difficult. It's not perfect, we all know that. We mitigate risks in our business, we cannot always eliminate them, lest you'll never leave the gate. An FA in this case wouldn't need to have battled this selfish little $#it to the death, merely popped the door open.

 

[glasspilot1]

An FA in this case wouldn't need to have battled this selfish little $#it to the death, merely popped the door open.

Spaulding, that is a good analysis, pretty much how I look at it. The post 9/11 door system is well designed and I don't think they should mess with it. ALL the carriers should adopt the "always two in the cockpit" rule and be done with it. At the Flt. Attn recurrent training they'll have a little more to talk about now. (Be ready to open the door if the flying pilot goes nuts)

 

[Juniority]

Surely you are not comparing the fedex incident to the tightly controlled environment of a passenger carrier.....Had a flight attendant been in that flight deck, this would not have happened...period....as with all the other pilot suicides you are dealing with introverted cowards....who dont act outuntil they are alone...

you might want to reel in that use of the word "introverted"... I'm an introvert and I'll kick your ass.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Had a flight attendant been in that flight deck, this would not have happened...period....as with all the other pilot suicides you are dealing with introverted cowards....who dont act outuntil they are alone...

The fact that we are counting with a particular mental illness that will make a person intent on harm not go ahead with his or her plans because they migt be intimidated by a girl shows how ridiculous this line of thinkng is...! We need to address the problem and not try to find fixes that won't work! You really think that a 24 year old cabin attendant on the cockpit will prevent an individual committed on mass murder from carrying out his plans?
We need to address the problem...,
And it is the fact that the self reporting system we have worldwide doesn't work, it hasn't worked for alcohol abuse, drug abuse and it certainly hasn't worked with mental illness issues. In this particular case there was a doctor that actually grounded this individual but because of the "self reporting" system we have, this fact didn't make it to the company. Had the doctor communicated directly with the company or the local CAA about the discualification of this individual from flight duties, thus terrible event wouldn't have happened.