Further RJ Reductions.....

[JoeMerchant]

You guys are missing the point....I'm not looking for a "number" at a mainline....

However it would behoove EVERYONE to put a stop to the "bidding" for flying.....

It is a moot point really because it will never happen....However I will do what is best for MY company and MY job.....If bigger airplanes and more airplanes is good for me.....Then bring them on......

 

[Sedona16]

You guys are missing the point....I'm not looking for a "number" at a mainline....

However it would behoove EVERYONE to put a stop to the "bidding" for flying.....

It is a moot point really because it will never happen....However I will do what is best for MY company and MY job.....If bigger airplanes and more airplanes is good for me.....Then bring them on......

You wont get them. Its called scope fella.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I believe that the pilots should be taken. ASA pilots are competent professionals and first class aviators. Flying jets in and out of busy hubs all day is airline pilot flying, period.

But the question is how would those pilots be taken. Personally, here's my view if you're talking ASA and Delta, which is the prevailing example in this discussion:

Staple all ASA pilots to the bottom of the Delta pilot's seniority list for equipment bidding.

ASA pilots keep their present status quo for the RJ flying they do.

All ASA pilots would get seniority based opportunities to 100% of all Delta new hire positions. If exercised, they would start over as a year 1 pilot at year 1 pay and seniority at Delta. If they chose to stay, they would keep all they have earned for the equipment they fly.

All pilots would keep DOH for furlough considerations, and if either side of the company needed to furlough, they would furlough from the bottom of either respective list. Although there would be one list, there would be a dividing line in that list. The outsource experiment abortion is too big and too ugly to ever be solved by one sweeping final solution at this point. A dividing line in one contract is the only way for it to ever happen.

All new hires for Delta or ASA would go to the bottom of ASA's list. They would then get their chance to transition to the Delta side of the line when they could hold it, if they chose to hold it.

Any Delta pilot that was furloughed would automatically be entitled to go back to the bottom of the ASA list, keeping their Delta longevity for pay but only bidding what they could hold at ASA as a new hire.

In short, not officially a B scale, but a workable solution that recognises the realities of our current situation, especially frst admitting there is a problem.

Later in subsequent contracts, efforts could be made to transition to a seamless single seniority list. In no case should an ASA pilot ever be able to use their ASA seniority to bid ahead of any Delta pilot in planes the ASA pilot didn't otherwise have the opportunity to fly for the company in question.

Is that the only workable solution, or will 100% of everyone be happy about it? Of course not. Another solution is for the Delta pilots to take back 90, then 70, then 50 seat flying as they are able to bargain for it. That would probably be more costly for them short term of course.

But no matter what happens, or doesn't happen, you have to first acknowledge that you have no leverage whatsoever to claim anything othet than your share of whatever flying ASA happens to offer you today. You will have to first committ to a staple, and THEN worry about how to work out the details, not the other way around, as was previouslly attempted by the PID------>RJDC.

Or you could embrace the status quo, comfortable that your ASA seniority will afford you pay and QOL and one more market cycle of furlough protection. But next cycle, will ASA have any flying to offer you? Is that even up to ASA? Will SkyWest give ASA some of UNited's or Delta's flying next time around? Will Delta give SkyWest Delta's flying next time around? Are those 70 and 90 seater opportunities "yours"? You sure about that?

....actually that is something I have advocated for years....The only thing you didn't really address is what happens to the mainline pilot who is furloughed....Where does he go?

I have no problem going to the bottom of the mainline list if I CHOOSE.....I do have a problem with mainline pilots using my job as furlough protection for a choice THEY made to move on.....They shouldn't bump me down......

 

[JoeMerchant]

You wont get them. Its called scope fella.

Go back a few years "fella".....How many scope clauses allowed 70-90 seat RJs.....How many do you see out there now.....fella.....

We're going into another downturn....after a very short upturn....The mainline pilots aren't exactly going to be in the driver's seat....

 

[IronCityBlue]

Actually ASA has flown jets up to 100 seats.....

In addition, when I hired on ASA didn't even operate 50 seat jets....therefor according to YOUR logic I don't even have a "right" to that flying....correct?

Therefor if that is the position of MY union.....then bring me another can of gas and a lighter....It is time to get rid of ALPA......

You guys just don't get it do ya.....Are you not learning anything from all of this.....We can either fight this separately or together....It looks like you guys want separate....So be it....but you may not like that either.....

Joe you're smart enough than to make empty threats like that. I know how it goes: "cooperate with us or we will underbid your 777 rates and management will give us everything!" etc. But even if you offer Delta management a dollar an hour to fly the 777, it will never be yours. You have to accept that. The Avro you were allowed to temporarilly operate is gone. History. You do not have rights to fly it today. You need to accept that.

But back to your "food fight" empty threat. The Delta pilots can underbid you and management can give them "your" flying. You can never underbid them and take "their" flying. You only own ASA flying, that's it. You don't have any claim or any leverage to one seat or one minute of Delta flying. Step one in this process begins with you realizing that and admitting it. You lack the power you somehow think you have or deserve.

The Delta pilots could take back their flying anytime they are willing to make a deal with Delta management. You lack the ability to do any such thing. Fortunately for you, mainline pilot groups haven't been minding the store so you are currently being allowed to fly (yes, allowed to fly) their flying in 50, 70 and 90 seat form. That continuing, or not, is not up to you. If that bothers you, go to an airline that does its own flying. Or stay and take your chances. No one will fault you either way. But even the number 1 pilot on the list of an outsource provider has no claim to outsourced flying beyond another pilot group's ongoing decision to continue to outsource said flying.

 

[eaglefly]

Hopefully all Majors will trim their 50 and less seaters a lot. They are not profitable at all, and they should be parked. Some large props may be useful thanks to less gas used, like the Dash-8-400. I am sure you will understand Eaglefly. NWA is still hiring, go for it. Or, a SJU transfer could be in order for you. That NDB approach to Beef Island would be fun for you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry to piss you off Corporal, but I have as much chance of losing my job as you do of upgrading to Captain.

50 seaters and under are not going to completely disappear. That's a fact. Any reductions wouldn't affect me anyway as there are 1000 captains junior to me here at Eagle.

Nice try kid.

 

[Sedona16]

Go back a few years "fella".....How many scope clauses allowed 70-90 seat RJs.....How many do you see out there now.....fella.....

We're going into another downturn....after a very short upturn....The mainline pilots aren't exactly going to be in the driver's seat....

Its exactly because of recent history on scope that major airline pilots are more proactive than ever with feet dug in further than before that scope will not give anymore. Also it was one thing to let the "converted corporate jet" slip through and that was pushed and pushed but now its a whole nother ball game. You can wish and dream all you want but regionals will start flying more props or reduce or both but they will not fly 737/airbus replacements (ie 100 seaters) period.

 

[Sedona16]

Joe you're smart enough than to make empty threats like that. I know how it goes: "cooperate with us or we will underbid your 777 rates and management will give us everything!" etc. But even if you offer Delta management a dollar an hour to fly the 777, it will never be yours. You have to accept that. The Avro you were allowed to temporarilly operate is gone. History. You do not have rights to fly it today. You need to accept that.

But back to your "food fight" empty threat. The Delta pilots can underbid you and management can give them "your" flying. You can never underbid them and take "their" flying. You only own ASA flying, that's it. You don't have any claim or any leverage to one seat or one minute of Delta flying. Step one in this process begins with you realizing that and admitting it. You lack the power you somehow think you have or deserve.

The Delta pilots could take back their flying anytime they are willing to make a deal with Delta management. You lack the ability to do any such thing. Fortunately for you, mainline pilot groups haven't been minding the store so you are currently being allowed to fly (yes, allowed to fly) their flying in 50, 70 and 90 seat form. That continuing, or not, is not up to you. If that bothers you, go to an airline that does its own flying. Or stay and take your chances. No one will fault you either way. But even the number 1 pilot on the list of an outsource provider has no claim to outsourced flying beyond another pilot group's ongoing decision to continue to outsource said flying.

Wow, well said!

 

[800Dog]

Actually ASA has flown jets up to 100 seats.....

In addition, when I hired on ASA didn't even operate 50 seat jets....therefor according to YOUR logic I don't even have a "right" to that flying....correct?

Therefor if that is the position of MY union.....then bring me another can of gas and a lighter....It is time to get rid of ALPA......

You guys just don't get it do ya.....Are you not learning anything from all of this.....We can either fight this separately or together....It looks like you guys want separate....So be it....but you may not like that either.....

I was at ASA when they flew the 146. Delta pilots and management have agreed to let you fly the aircraft you fly to feed mainline. If they change that agreement in the future, you will have no option but to live with it or move on. The flying does not belong to you. Your choice to fly for a connection carrier!

 

[andyd]

Therefor if that is the position of MY union.....then bring me another can of gas and a lighter....It is time to get rid of ALPA......



I agree with you finally on one point: Alpa should not represent ANY regional. Then cannot fundamentaly represent the interests of both mainline and feeder airlines pilot groups....they are diametrically opposed.

 

[HoserASA]

Actually ASA has flown jets up to 100 seats......

ASA had ONE BAE-146 w/ 100 seats, with a completely white paint job. No markings other than the 'N' number. If memory serves me correct, it was intended to be used as a spare. But that didn't last long and it flew daily. The other 146s, 5 or 6 I think, had 88 seats.

Hoser

 

[dooork]

Its exactly because of recent history on scope that major airline pilots are more proactive than ever with feet dug in further than before that scope will not give anymore. Also it was one thing to let the "converted corporate jet" slip through and that was pushed and pushed but now its a whole nother ball game. You can wish and dream all you want but regionals will start flying more props or reduce or both but they will not fly 737/airbus replacements (ie 100 seaters) period.

That is until the "Mainline"pilots cave.........AGAIN!

 

[IronCityBlue]

....actually that is something I have advocated for years....The only thing you didn't really address is what happens to the mainline pilot who is furloughed....Where does he go?

I have no problem going to the bottom of the mainline list if I CHOOSE.....I do have a problem with mainline pilots using my job as furlough protection for a choice THEY made to move on.....They shouldn't bump me down......

I did address that. I said any mainline pilot who was furloughed would have claim to all new hire positions at the bottom of the list of ASA (or whatever company(s) the case may be).

Again, I think most are on the same page in theory. The devil is in the details. You say you don't want a mainline number, and that's fine. But you do very clearly want something that you are incapabile of getting for yourself by staying at ASA. That is job security. 100% of the flying you do is by the grace of Delta pilots allowing it, for now, to be outsourced, and then Delta management deciding on giving a portion of that flying to SkyWest, Inc, and then Jerry deciding to give it to ASA. Jerry, Delta and/or Delta's pilots could, at any time, remove 100% of your flying through deals they negotiate outside the scope of your bargaining authority.

On the other hand, there is nothing you can do to secure that flying long term. The best you can do is "remain competitive" (cheap) and hope two different management teams continue to view you as the cheapest labor liability solution this time around while you brace for next time around.

The Delta pilots are legally able to take 100% of their flying back at any time. You are not legally allowed to either take their flying, or even to permantly secure the flying you currently do. Your job may be very secure because of your relative seniority within your one of many outsource provider portfolio ACMI air group alternatives, but at any time it could all be taken away regardless of anything you negotiate. The very best you can do is block hour minimums, but even those would be a moot point if the flying was taken away from your management.

You want a workable solution and I commend you for that. But you want to either gain something or at the very elast guarantee your status quo, but you don't want to put anything at risk to make it happen. It would be great if things worked like that. All you own or have any claim, whatsoever, to is ASA flying. Which, as you know, doesn't really even exist.

You have benefitted significantly from previous mainline stupidity and arrogance because they let so many planes be outsourced. They might someday change their mind, which is their right, and there won't be a thing you can do about it then.

 

[regionaltard]

You have benefitted significantly from previous mainline stupidity and arrogance because they let so many planes be outsourced. They might someday change their mind, which is their right, and there won't be a thing you can do about it then.

Recovery of that flying would require the expenditure of vastly more negotiating capital than it would have cost to keep it in house in the first place. I'm not holding my breath.

One more thing. If you have to buy something, it's not yours.

 

[hawkowl88]

Completely wrong

"You have benefitted significantly from previous mainline stupidity and arrogance because they let so many planes be outsourced. They might someday change their mind, which is their right, and there won't be a thing you can do about it then.[/quote]"

This is where you really f&*$ up your argument. Benefit how? If mainline pilots wouldn't have broken the first rule of unionized work "NEVER OUTSOURCE" then all these "little jets" would already be doing mainline flying with the associated payscale and benefits. Regional pilots have had their career expectations drastically attenuated due to mainline stupidity and arrogance.

Mainline pilots, devised and implemented their own demise. Undercutting the pilot profession by farming out their B scales to wholly different companies. Brilliant. The results have been 100% predictable.

I am as arrogant as the next pilot. But as a group the arrogance and cranius rectum of mainline pilots as a group--is staggering. My flying, my this, my that, mine. Mine. MINE!

We are all simply labor. And as a fragmented half assed unionized labor force, we don't own or control jack ********************.

Benefitted hugely. Jesus H. f%%@ Christ. Nothing they can do about? You start talking ******************** and you continue the bidding war amongst your fellow pilots?!?

How many mainline Delta pilots are there? 6000? How many connection pilots? 6000? Yeah. You control a whole effin lot buddy.