Furloughs at FLOP's????

[B19 Flyer]

B19,
If you work for a non-union carrier as you say, how is it that you were "there getting the unfiltered information from the negotiators" yourself? I'm just askin' ???

In one of my prior positions while working at a unionized carrier was when I was in the middle of it, and that is where I learned how much unions lie to their brethren. That was the position that turned me against unions completely because I saw what the company was doing and the reality of how unions negotiated. The unions would do one thing inside the meeting and walk out with a spin that was 180 degrees from reality. The famous 15 minute caucus that would go for 6 hours to firm up 15 words of a sentence was my favorite. The union would go out for a "short caucus" and come back hours later.. then not even have their proposed language written. Then, nothing would be accomplished and the union would come out and say the company was stonewalling. They lie like cheap rugs, and the union membership eats it up. I've never seen the company do this.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I don't bash unions.

What is so hard for you to say where you work. Or even what industry you work in. You can't answer anything except union bashing.

So answer the question!

The specific company is not relevant.

I've addressed this ad-nauseum, but I'll do it again. I'm in a management position (with no direct reports due to what I specialize in) at a Part 121 international carrier, but have worked from 135 on-demand, 135 scheduled, 91k fractional (before and after the rules went into place) commuter (back when a commuter was really a commuter), regional and legacy.

Interest in Fracs? I worked on a lot of the rulemaking on 91K and I like the business model. I feel that union infiltration is premature within the model. As a result, there will be negative long term effects on it which in turn will cost pilots jobs. Young pilots that have not previously been burned by unions don't understand the overall negative effects that unions have on an industry. These new guys drink the union kool-aid and are more wound around the short term paycheck than the long term financial health and stability of the company.

I don't bash unions. I give the exact same opinions that 95% of company leadership feels when running a carrier with a union in it that they won't admit to or say out loud because it's not politically correct. I was muzzled before when I was working in a union environment, but I'm not now and can openly express my opinions, something company leadership with unions on the property can't.

There are basics that never change when running a company in a union environment that union members don't understand because they have never seen the dark side of unions.

 

[CA1900]

They lie like cheap rugs, and the union membership eats it up. I've never seen the company do this.

I have. My previous experience at a non-union carrier gave me enough "turmoil" to last a lifetime. Embezzlement, furloughs, domicile closures -- you name it, they did it.

My personal favorite was when they lied, "like cheap rugs," right to our faces. On a Wednesday afternoon, the company president said, "Don't believe the doom-and-gloom rumors that are floating around; we're right on track." Thirty-six hours later, half of the pilot group gets furloughed, with a letter citing problems with cash flow. As I'm reading the letter at company HQ, I'm watching our fuel truck filling up one of the principal's new CJ1 for a trip to Vegas. Cash-flow problems, indeed.

Before I went to work for a non-union carrier, the ONLY disruptions in my career were directly due to unions.

The only disruptions in my career have been due to unethical management.

 

[Semore Butts]

"I see the light Bob 19"!

I see it! It's crystal clear now!

You are right!

I want in!

What you say about your company sounds great!

I wanna be part of it!

Where do I apply?

I know I'm qualified, I have 9000 hours a degree, a double "Top Gun"!

 

[B19 Flyer]

I see it! It's crystal clear now!

You are right!

I want in!

What you say about your company sounds great!

I wanna be part of it!

Where do I apply?

I know I'm qualified, I have 9000 hours a degree, a double "Top Gun"!

3000 of those 121 international PIC? No? That seriously ends that conversation.

Little planes like 737s don't count, and man... you are watching way too many movies. :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have. My previous experience at a non-union carrier gave me enough "turmoil" to last a lifetime. Embezzlement, furloughs, domicile closures -- you name it, they did it.

My personal favorite was when they lied, "like cheap rugs," right to our faces. On a Wednesday afternoon, the company president said, "Don't believe the doom-and-gloom rumors that are floating around; we're right on track." Thirty-six hours later, half of the pilot group gets furloughed, with a letter citing problems with cash flow. As I'm reading the letter at company HQ, I'm watching our fuel truck filling up one of the principal's new CJ1 for a trip to Vegas. Cash-flow problems, indeed.

The only disruptions in my career have been due to unethical management.

We have had different experiences. Unions have hurt my cause, and you feel that you needed a union to protect yours. The only cheats that I saw were at the union level and the information they gave out to their membership to create emotion.

The difference is, the union you chose to protect your career saw fit to interrupt mine. As far as that principal filling up his new CJ1? He was smarter than both of us, otherwise both of us would be filling up our new airplanes. I have no reason to be jealous that he is more successful financially than I am because he is the one that creates the opportunity for me to make a living doing what I want to do.

I have no right to demand money from him simply because he makes more than me which is what a union does. My current choice of employers is the smartest I've ever made. If you need to have a union to protect your interests because you don't have it in you to fight for yourself, that is your privilege. I preferred to control my own career destiny so I removed the union scourge from my future.

Insanity is labeled as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After being burned twice by unions it was clear I needed to find a carrier that didn't have one and I was successful.

 

[CA1900]

We have had different experiences.

Exactly my point. Thank you.

The difference is, the union you chose to protect your career saw fit to interrupt mine. As far as that principal filling up his new CJ1? He was smarter than both of us, otherwise both of us would be filling up our new airplanes.

Not exactly.

He paid for that CJ by embezzling funds, raping the ESOP, and defrauding the shareholders. It's currently working its way through the courts.

I have no right to demand money from him simply because he makes more than me which is what a union does.

No, it really isn't. I'll never make as much as my CEO (at least, not as a pilot), and that isn't my goal. A union is the mechanism provided by our legal system to give employees the leverage they need to keep their employer from abusing them. It keeps the employer from changing the working conditions on a whim. The biggest thing I get out of an employment contract is stability in my life and in my job.

The absence of all that "flexibility" you tout is what prevents turmoil for those employees. I saw what happens when unethical management is given free reign, and wasn't pretty. All the employees suffered, and had no mechanism to address it.

My current choice of employers is the smartest I've ever made.

I'm glad you found an ethical employer.

If you need to have a union to protect your interests because you don't have it in you to fight for yourself...

:laugh: Riiiight.

I have plenty of fight in me, but I understand that a group can accomplish much more than an individual.

Insanity is labeled as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I agree! And after being burned twice by non-union employers with unethical management, it was clear I needed to find a carrier with a union, and I was successful.

 

[fly4funcrj]

I see it! It's crystal clear now!

You are right!

I want in!

What you say about your company sounds great!

I wanna be part of it!

Where do I apply?

I know I'm qualified, I have 9000 hours a degree, a double "Top Gun"!

Sorry bro, you don't have the "gold seal".. Give it up Couldn't resist

 

[Fozzy]

He paid for that CJ by embezzling funds, raping the ESOP, and defrauding the shareholders. It's currently working its way through the courts.

There you go, bringing up the old dirt. Ruining my day. :angryfire

 

[CA1900]

There you go, bringing up the old dirt. Ruining my day. :angryfire

Not as old for me as it is for you.

You mean you could figure out which slimeball I was talking about just from that little bit of detail? :laugh:

Don't let it ruin your day -- the nightmare is over!

 

[Diesel]

The specific company is not relevant.

I've addressed this ad-nauseum, but I'll do it again. I'm in a management position (with no direct reports due to what I specialize in) at a Part 121 international carrier, but have worked from 135 on-demand, 135 scheduled, 91k fractional (before and after the rules went into place) commuter (back when a commuter was really a commuter), regional and legacy.

Interest in Fracs? I worked on a lot of the rulemaking on 91K and I like the business model. I feel that union infiltration is premature within the model. As a result, there will be negative long term effects on it which in turn will cost pilots jobs. Young pilots that have not previously been burned by unions don't understand the overall negative effects that unions have on an industry. These new guys drink the union kool-aid and are more wound around the short term paycheck than the long term financial health and stability of the company.

I don't bash unions. I give the exact same opinions that 95% of company leadership feels when running a carrier with a union in it that they won't admit to or say out loud because it's not politically correct. I was muzzled before when I was working in a union environment, but I'm not now and can openly express my opinions, something company leadership with unions on the property can't.

There are basics that never change when running a company in a union environment that union members don't understand because they have never seen the dark side of unions.

Blah blah blah. You have just given me a bunch of vague companies that sound like this one or that. All which give you no expert opinions like you claim to have on unions or the fractional industry.

Grab your balls and actually say who you work for. Till then your just some 12 year old on the computer.

So till then you're just a kid playing world of warcraft. Good luck with that.

 

[imacdog]

Guys, I will be upfront and say who I work for. I actually work for a textile manufacturing company located in South Bend, Indiana. What we actually manufacture is not important, but I have worked for manufacturing companies involved in auto parts, jigsaw puzzle pieces, blow-up dolls, and sprinkler heads. I just happen to make every single one of my posts in the fractional forum about unions because I have a passing interest in aviation and like the idea of being a professional pilot.

(wow that was pretty easy to say! I'm so glad B19 came out with 100% honesty too )

 

[Diesel]

hahaaa you sound like publishers.

 

[Semore Butts]

No I don't have 3000 hours of international PIC time

Who has a requirement of 3000 hours PIC international time?

Cmon B-19????

I'll have to look into that?

I do have 600 hours of Combat time, 400 of imminent danger and about 600 of Night Vision Goggles.

You Mr. Top Gun?

 

[Semore Butts]

What I found so far for Bob 19!

Looks like Jet Blue is going Union?

Looks like Airtran is going union?

I thought these companies were doing good?

Did they just arbitrarily decide to go union?

Or is management "doinking" them? IIIIIIII wonder?

Why Bob why????

 

[fischman]

The specific company is not relevant. Not to your employees.

I've addressed this ad-nauseum, but I'll do it again. I'm in a management position (with no direct reports due to what I specialize in) at a Part 121 international carrier...

THAT is a lie.

 

[B19 Flyer]

THAT is a lie.

Matter of opinion, but I everything I state is true.

The biggest lies I've seen ever in the airline industry are those coming from unions regarding negotiations updates.

 

[Photoflight]

Matter of opinion, but everything I state is true.

WTF? ........ does this make sense to anyone else?

 

[brokeflyer]

management are the ones that lie. They steal money from the company and employees. Managers would tell you one thing, then take your salary and not even give you a reach around.

Uniions prevent this by making sure management don't cheat, steal and lie. Which of course, is a fact. Just watch the news.

Unions should be a requirment for business.....it's the only way to survive.

 

[gunfyter]

WTF? ........ does this make sense to anyone else?

It depends on what the definition of "is" is....

 

[Publishers]

Brokeflyer says that unions are the only way to survive. Of couse the airlines and the auto business, two huge union industries barely do.

 

[208starcheck]

Which part of this is scary for you?

Really........ Did you not read what I wrote. You must be management, not listening to anyone. I clearly wrote "scary in an UNSTABLE way". You are scary because you are UNSTABLE? You are starting to sound like a religious extremist. I only hope we don't hear about some airline that had a low level manager walk into the office with a full auto weapon.

 

[brokeflyer]

Brokeflyer says that unions are the only way to survive. Of couse the airlines and the auto business, two huge union industries barely do.

That's because of piss poor managment......fact.

I meant it's the only way for the people who actully do the work at a company to survive.

The future of the company is in the hands of the idiots at the helm, unions just help bring the greed level of management down a bit.

The airlines and auto industry, and wall street, is dying bvecause of management greed and stupidity. It has nothing to do with a union.

 

[fischman]

Matter of opinion, but I everything I state is true.

How is it a matter of opinion? It is a fact. You do NOT work for a 121 international carrier.


By the way, your quoted statement is another lie.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Not exactly Sherlock Holmes.....

How is it a matter of opinion? It is a fact. You do NOT work for a 121 international carrier.


By the way, your quoted statement is another lie.

Are you good at "Z" time's fischman? Look at the times of my morning posts and do the math. You think ANY CGF manager is going to be up at that time of day having fun with you? Not very bright and you're not exactly Sherlock Holmes.

Oh, and on my "ignorance"? You fly each and every day under rules that I helped to draft for 91K. How many days have you spent in working groups supporting the frac industry?

You're a beginner by industry standards. When the NJ contract stumbles and needs to go back to bargaining within the next 12 - 18 months you won't have the nuts to admit I was right.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That's because of piss poor managment......fact.

I meant it's the only way for the people who actully do the work at a company to survive.

The future of the company is in the hands of the idiots at the helm, unions just help bring the greed level of management down a bit.

The airlines and auto industry, and wall street, is dying bvecause of management greed and stupidity. It has nothing to do with a union.

Sure... every industry has poor management. That's it.. that's why so many successful companies are union owned. Unions are like a leech.. they need a host animal to feed from. They can't do it on their own.

Now, when that exact same management produces record profits and allows the unions something to grab, management is brilliant...

But when the economy slips and the company can't adjust because of labor, management must be bad. It can't possibly be because they are handcuffed by unions that are slow to react under pressure for the good of the company.

 

[brokeflyer]

how long you wanna keep this going? We can do the "i think unions are great" and "you think unions suck" thing for a while......very pointless.

 

[imacdog]

A union buster will say anything and do anything to convince others to believe what they say is true. They do this because they have no morals or ability to engage in intelligent debate.

 

[fischman]

Are you good at "Z" time's fischman? Look at the times of my morning posts and do the math. You think ANY CGF manager is going to be up at that time of day having fun with you? Those are not zulu times on the post. I just posted at 2133 EASTERN, not zulu. Ignorance or lies B19? Do you want to tell me when you REALLY made those posts? Not very bright and you're not exactly Sherlock Holmes. Yes. I do if that is what you are paid to do.

Oh, and on my "ignorance"? You fly each and every day under rules that I helped to draft for 91K. How many days have you spent in working groups supporting the frac industry? More than you realize.

You're a beginner by industry standards. The industry is almost 100 years old. Just because I am young does not make me stupid, "old man". When the NJ contract stumbles and needs to go back to bargaining within the next 12 - 18 months you won't have the nuts to admit I was right.

You can't be right if you are wrong.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You can't be right if you are wrong.

fischman.... as all this unfolds, you won't have the courage to admit I was right. 3 years of turmoil and stagnation at FLOPS, I called that three years ago. I'll predict that by the end of next year the contract will become an issue at NJ, and if there aren't layoffs before then, there will be great discussion on pulling it back to match the rest of the industry. The industry will no longer be trying to pull itself up to the impossible standards the industry leading CBA that is currently there.

I didn't think that you understood the concept of "Z" time to see that when I posted was outside the normal CGF working hours, you couldn't find 800 Independence Ave if was in front of you and always remember.... "Old age and treachery overcomes youth and skill" every time.