Furloughs at FLOP's????

[AftCG182]

92 Beechjet SIC's + 12 Hawker SIC's for those who care about the breakdown.

538 Pilots
-102 (or 22%) furloughed in inverse seniority
---------
436 Remaining

The only good news is that they will get 6 weeks of pay, PTO payout, medical through January, and they retain "recall" rights for 7 years.

btw, I doubt there was 20 to 30 Management axed, but there probably were 20 to 30 Staff axed. I don't don't know if they have recall rights

I'm really sorry to be reading this, guys. It's actually made me feel good to bump into FLOPs folks at the FBO's lately... seems like there has been a definite improvement in your spirits with the recent changes. This announcement could not have come at a worse time of the year... I wish the best for you and your families.

 

[CALRepublic]

The most important thing the company and union can do now is pass the contract. If they don't, morale and productivity will sink back to 2006-2007 levels. Nobody wants that.

That would be good for the furloughed guys as well, kind of telling them "hang in there, they'll be a good job waiting for you when you get recalled".

 

[glasspilot]

I think Avantair's P180 would probably do great as many semi-wealthy people or corporate operators downsize their current owned aircraft and look for something cheaper (while still retaining the benefits and efficiency of private aircraft). The wealthiest people will always want to fly bigger airplanes regardless of the economy.

From what I hear, that is exactly what is happening. 80% of our new owners are coming from the competition.

I knew a guy who owned a pizza shop in Chicago. I'd ask him if he ever wanted to get into fine dining. He said, "no". Having a pizza shop was perfect. When times were good, people who would otherwise never go out to eat now had the money to go out and they'd eat pizza. When times were tough people who used to go out for steak would scale back and now eat pizza. So no matter where the economy was he had a client base.

That's the way I see Avantair. Good times equals us getting new owners off the street. Bad times equals us getting new owners off the competition.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[jetwash]

Sorry Freedom but I wouldn't classify this as a "move", as you say. Folks, this is just the beginning in our industry. Expect this to be the bowling ball effect in our industry. This is the beginning of what could be potential stagnation in our market for a long while. The "F" word has been talked about for weeks now at flex with no one even giving any evidence that there will ever be layoffs. This is exactly the condition of the market right now; fear. Our customers are not stupid and, the reduction in flying at all fractionals right now is confirmation that that fear in the marketplace has now translated to our market. We can only hope that next year will be the turnaround--which is being predicted around the end of summer.

.

Flops might have been the first but, I am sure we won't be the last to furlough. I bet the customers of the other frax took a financial hit just like the Flops customers did and will reduce their amount of flying.

 

[waka]

B19 will blame furlough on the union in 5,4,3,2.........

 

[bchjetdrvr]

I can't even begin to imagine how furloughed FLOPS pilots must feel, you worked under a crappy contract for so long, now this.

Huh? What contract? There's no contract at Flops currently and never has been.

 

[Semore Butts]

Gotta love the message board Deisel

Diesel said;

What's up with the sorry it sucks but go join the military?

Diesel,

I was just pointing out an option for some people that may be looking for away to make a living while they are furloughed?

What type of retard advice is that.

Well I don't know? Why don't we see what you have to offer?

Hmmm guys just lost their jobs and their lives are thrown into whack and you say, "hey join the military you'll be gone during the most stressful time of your life"

Again, I don't know, what do you have to offer?

Wouldn't that take some stress outof there life having a years worth of employment?

WTF.

I am now dumber from reading that post.


Sorry man, I was sincerely trying to let some former military pilots know there may be an opportunity available for them.

I have posted the same information during the good times as well.

Maybe my writing skills aren't that good. It's often hard to communicate in type.

 

[MasterOfYaw]

What's up with the sorry it sucks but go join the military? What type of retard advice is that. Hmmm guys just lost their jobs and their lives are thrown into whack and you say, "hey join the military you'll be gone during the most stressful time of your life"

WTF.

I am now dumber from reading that post.

Diesel,
Joining the reserves during a furlough has a long tradition among former military guys. This recession may be a long one. If the past is any guide, furloughs may be long and some companies won’t come out the other side. Some guys may be independently wealthy or have few obligations and be able to flip burgers for a year or two, and then possibly start over for pennies. For those able and used to accepting the risks and the sacrifices, serving their country again in the military is a viable option. During the early and mid 90’s “pilot depression,” guys were jumping at any available reserve or guard position, particularly those which involved activation and a full time paycheck. I don’t consider any of them “retards.” Semore pointing out these opportunities is no different than someone pointing out that XYZ corp or ANACathEvaJAL are hiring. Every job has its benefits and sacrifices. Military flying generally has more of both.

 

[gunfyter]

For those who can, I think military is a better deal than most flying jobs.... I would take the military over most jobs.

Now if you can get into the top 10% seniority of a company like NJA and make Captain when you are still in your 20's....

 

[Sparse]

I posted this back in Spetember. I wonder if the fallout is begining.


Everything the Airline's do lately is good news to Fractionals. But bad for the pilots.:nuts:

In light of evrything going on on Wall Street, I think we need to ask ourselves who we are hauling around on our aircraft. Many of the 40-50 ish age clients in and out of HPN and TEB are involved on WS. Just google them. With bonuses going down or away, how many are going to be able to continue with the luxurys. I really don't know, but my gut feeling is not good. I hope this is just paranoria.

 

[Diesel]

Don't you think that the military people already know they can go back to the reserves.

You want help start networking like a mofo. Don't stop, don't sit at home and don't start drinking. Join places like propilotworld..com and other networking sites.

For those that don't have the military fall back option or are two old or have to many STD's there are quite a few contracting companies that will help in the short short term.

 

[flyzimex]

Join places like propilotworld..com and other networking sites.

This is a great advice, BUT, know that any kind of bickering/namecalling a'la FI style is not accepted over there. You will be back out into the cold quicker than you got in :smash: .

It's an awesome site with a great group of people, and that's the way us over there want to keep it.

Just a "FYI". Good luck to everyone on the hunt:beer: .

 

[MasterOfYaw]

Don't you think that the military people already know they can go back to the reserves.

You want help start networking like a mofo. Don't stop, don't sit at home and don't start drinking. Join places like propilotworld..com and other networking sites.

For those that don't have the military fall back option or are two old or have to many STD's there are quite a few contracting companies that will help in the short short term.

Not any more than anyone flying for an airline or fractional knows they can go corporate. Guard and reserve oportunities go thru feast and famine cycles and getting a flying position in the reserves or guard, particularly when times are tough, often requires connections. It's not a matter of calling the recruiter and saying "sign me up," it's more like wrangling a corporate job.

 

[skyismyoffice]

My understanding is that they will be parked, not sold.

I asked Salata that question when he delivered the news to me. His response was 'yes' we will be selling aircraft for working capital. We can always buy aircraft when things pick up...

 

[brokeflyer]

so they lay-off pilots(who do all the work) and yet management keeps thier jobs AND their salary?

and they say unions are evil.....RIGHT!!!

 

[clickclickboom]

I asked Salata that question when he delivered the news to me. His response was 'yes' we will be selling aircraft for working capital. We can always buy aircraft when things pick up...

J Salata is back on property? He was headed to AZ when I left 3 years ago

 

[jetwash]

I asked Salata that question when he delivered the news to me. His response was 'yes' we will be selling aircraft for working capital. We can always buy aircraft when things pick up...

Now who would want to buy a bunch of old Beech Jets for cheap?

If only there was a company in the Cleveland area who was looking for Beech Jets to up grade with new engines and avionics then sell them when the economy picks up again.

 

[skanza]

Now who would want to buy a bunch of old Beech Jets for cheap?

If only there was a company in the Cleveland area who was looking for Beech Jets to up grade with new engines and avionics then sell them when the economy pick up again.

That's what I was thinking too...

 

[skyismyoffice]

J Salata is back on property? He was headed to AZ when I left 3 years ago

Yea, he's back. Can't remember exactly what his title is - something like manager of new aircraft fleets or some vague BS like that.

 

[TurboHonda]

Here's my prediction for FLOPS
''Ricci was on the premises when the RIFs occurred. Does anyone really think he had no control over it?

Now Sheeringa is gone. Bad Michael. Michael is gone, but his policy remains.

Ricci arrives with his phony assed toothy grin. He throws some food at the pilots and hires back the 70 that he helped fire. I haven’t forgotten the 128 non pilots. But, management and support was top heavy and needed to be trimmed anyway.

Now Ricci is personally negotiating in good faith. Well, maybe.

Ricci will eventually reach a stalling point in negotiations. The mediator will release us to self help.

A strike will never happen. Between the kool-aid crowd, the crew meal fat bodies, and those just happy to have a job (or their job back), we’ll return to the days of the CULTure.

Are we smart enough to see through what’s happening? I don’t think so.

Prove me wrong. Please!!''

------------------------------------------------

Are you starting to believe me now? He even brought back the King of Fat Bodies to set an example for everyone.

If you've never listened to your MEC, now's the time to start.

 

[netjetwife]

....The only good news is that they will get 6 weeks of pay, PTO payout, medical through January, and they retain "recall" rights for 7 years.....

My heart goes out to all those affected. As we approach Thanksgiving, I can easily imagine the bitterness many from Options must be feeling. Even when I don't post I still follow your cause from the sidelines.

I'm thankful that 1108 was there to look out for you guys and get some decent arrangements, not to mention the fact that it was done according to reverse seniority rules and that you have recall rights. I know that right now for the furloughed families it is hard to think so, but actually...it could be worse. Given the FLOPS' track record lately, I doubt any rules would have been followed or any help given to soften the blow had there not been a Union on property to represent the pilots.

Best Wishes,
NJW

 

[HSDriver]

Deleted

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Until Flight Options Management learns to put their Ego aside, and make the Pilots Partners in the Business, like has been done at NetJets, Flight Options will continue to spiral into demise.

As a former Flight Options Pilot, I do not enjoy watching these events unfold. I still have any friends on the property. However, until the likes of Tyler and Ford and Harrison understand that the Pilots of Flight Options have a sense of Pride that will not be destroyed by Management's Terrorists tactics, there will be no peace, and the business will continue to suffer.

Though I agree about the F& H part, I fully believe NJ isn't immune to this economy either.

We are having a countrywide (even worldwide) financial crisis, and slews of businesses thought to be impossible to fail are going under (or on the verge of) left and right.

With so much media attention on the auto execs taking "private jets" to beg for their bailouts, the pubic has become highly aware of those practices, and you can fully expect them to be highlighted.

Many NJ (the trolls) on this board love to claim how their people never run out of money, but they would be wrong...it will affect them DEEPLY in the next year, mark my words.

Anytime a govt lackey, exec, celebrity, family members, etc go to an FBO as the economy worsens, they will be media ostracized between the economy and the global warming brigade. TMZ with their plants and ability to zoom from miles away or some other outlet will splash such pics all over.

Rest assured the "cycle" I have been talking about for 3 years now is coming home to roost and is staying for quite some years.

That said it is sickening to see my fellow co-workers furloughed before Christmas, and wish this all wasn't happening.

 

[greygoose]

That said it is sickening to see my fellow co-workers furloughed before Christmas, and wish this all wasn't happening.

Moral is going to or has already fallen to a low time record. Many of the pilots still employed, don't want to hear that another pilot is on the street. When in fact nothing was offered to try to alleviate a furlough. There is a number of guys that would take a LOA, or even that want to burn up some vacation time and are still getting denied.

Now is the time for the Union to shine and support the fact they care for their members in good standing and make the point to the pilot group. The President is already leading towards the note they are not going to refund dues to members in good standing. His words being it was different for the RIF because they would have had to live with an illegal termination.
Don't get me wrong I totally agree with that, but doesn't support when they came back and you didn't enforce a back payment.
I totally support the idea you did it once you should do it again; if anyone is on the street in good standing get their dues back. Make a clear statement to the ones who choose to not pay dues.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Moral is going to or has already fallen to a low time record. Many of the pilots still employed, don't want to hear that another pilot is on the street. When in fact nothing was offered to try to alleviate a furlough. There is a number of guys that would take a LOA, or even that want to burn up some vacation time and are still getting denied.
.

Exactly....why don't they offer up VOLUNTARY leave of absence programs as they've done at the airlines. I am sure that there are plenty of our guys (and girls) that have other means of income that would love a chance to get away from this place for a while and not lose position or seniority. They could let them keep their benefits, and the savings in salary (especially when a more senior person) and temp reduction in force could save some more pilot jobs. Maybe the union could work up a letter of agreement or something even though we don't have a contract yet?

 

[netjetwife]

...There is a number of guys that would take a LOA, or even that want to burn up some vacation time and are still getting denied. How aggravating!

Now is the time for the Union to shine and support the fact they care for their members in good standing and make the point to the pilot group. Agreed. The President is already leading towards the note they are not going to refund dues to members in good standing. That's too bad. His words being it was different for the RIF because they would have had to live with an illegal termination. Regardless of the reason, financial hardship has the same impact on the pilots and families. .... I totally support the idea you did it once you should do it again; if anyone is on the street in good standing get their dues back. Make a clear statement to the ones who choose to not pay dues.

I agree that refunding the dues of furloughed members in good standing would be a good thing to do. In tough times a show of moral support is always welcome. Perhaps if enough of the pilot group asks the leadership to do that they will respond. I'm with you, Greygoose. It's not just the money, but the message that is important, too. NJW

 

[Freedom]

You make my point VOR...

Exactly....why don't they offer up VOLUNTARY leave of absence programs as they've done at the airlines. I am sure that there are plenty of our guys (and girls) that have other means of income that would love a chance to get away from this place for a while and not lose position or seniority. They could let them keep their benefits, and the savings in salary (especially when a more senior person) and temp reduction in force could save some more pilot jobs. Maybe the union could work up a letter of agreement or something even though we don't have a contract yet?

The fact that nothing was offered up other than here is a Layoff, deal with it, and the timing, just before the start of the Peak Travel Season, makes my point that this move was about generating Fear among the surviving Pilots, so that they might be more inclined to Tow the Company Line during Peak Travel.

This was just another Strong Arm tactic from this Management Team, like so many we have seen in the past. There may be a Kinder, Gentler face leading Management at Flight Options, but at its core, nothing has changed.

Exhibit A: Ford and Harrison and Scheeringa's Hit Man BT are still in place. What more evidence do you need?

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Publishers]

If they shut the company down some would think it some kind of strategic move to put pressure on the pilot group.
This company is up to its ass in alligators and no doubt happy for the chance to oppress their union movement.
Get a life, this company will be lucky to survive a year without a significant change in the economy.

 

[Freedom]

Do your homework....

If they shut the company down some would think it some kind of strategic move to put pressure on the pilot group.
This company is up to its ass in alligators and no doubt happy for the chance to oppress their union movement.
Get a life, this company will be lucky to survive a year without a significant change in the economy.

NetJets was bleeding record Red Ink prior to settling with their Pilots back in 2005. Within a month after the ink was dry on the Contract, they were making profits in the 10's of millions.

Its absolutely amazing how much a motivated Pilot Group can contribute to the Company's bottom line. But of course, first you have to respect that Pilot Group enough to at least compensate them with Industry Standard Pay and Benefits.

If Flight Options Management won't at least agree to that, then let it burn. Profits should not be made on the backs of a Professional Pilot Group. If Flight Options Management is not wise enough to manage the business (including effectively motivating an intelligent workforce through methods of today, not strong arm methods of the 1930s), then close the doors.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Publishers]

I am all for that-- shut it down which will help some other companies make it through these tough times. You might want to use that free time to review the Netjets books and see what happened to them over the period of years. The only thing saving them a bit today is that they finally got a handle on Netjets Europe. It also helped that they settled with the pilots in the middle of the surgeing bubble that today has burst.
Anyrealtionship between the two companies is entirely incidental in that they both have pictures of aircraft on their walls. Ricci does not even look like Buffett.