Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[andyd]

Dude.....Chill out man......GL was just JOKING about avoiding MSP or DTW in the winter. I've done my fair share of -20 degree preflights in MSP and here's to hoping that I never have to go through there again! GL wasn't dissing the 742 or the venerable 9, JUST the winter wx up north, EH? For what it's worth, the 9's are PAID for and hopefully will be the replacement for a buttload of worthless 50 seaters.

 

[General Lee]

General,

If you would like to share your name and seniority number I am sure it can be arranged for you to never fly in a Northwest A330 or 744 through Minneapolis.

Be careful what you wish for. In this economy I would think that you would want all options on the table.

You really are showing your ignorance when you maked heated emotional comments like this. Why don't you sit back, relax, take a toke from the pipe and wait to see what comes out next week. By the sounds of it, the new JPWA will be less than your LOA 19 but it will be what is needed to carry us through this downturn.

The sooner you stop throwing spears and accepting the fact that NWA is part of your future, the sooner we can all just move on to a better future TOGETHER. Bashing the 742 or the DC9 is doing nothing for pilot unity. Ford and Harrison loves it when you make comments like that--divide and conquer.

Thank god we have good leadership on both sides that are trying to hash things out in NYC this week.

In Unity

You must have missed FBN0223's message right before mine about bidding the A330 so he won't have to go through ATL and CVG. You want my seniority number? It's number 1 baby......

As far as NWA and DL becoming one, I think it is great. We are going to be a strong airline with a great future most likely. The problem most of us have is that we don't know what will happen with those old DC9s and 742s. We all know that they will go first, and that makes a lot of our pilots nervous. I think you could understand that. It would be like us still having DC8s doing SJU. It's the elephant in the room. We don't think it would be fair to have ANY of our guys furloughed because of planes brought to the table by YOU. You can say all you want about your retirements coming soon (although age 65 has bumped it), just like our retirements coming right after that. There are a host of issues that need to be worked out, but overall I think operationally our airline will be great. A few fences here and there should take care of the rest. Enjoy the pay raise.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RedRum]

Enjoy the pay raise.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If I make it that far. That's what I can't understand. We are talking about pay raises and furloughs at the same time. There is something wrong with that scenario.

Yes, this is an opportunity to up the anty, but could the timing be any worse. I just hope our leadership are doing what they can to alleviate furloughs. Most of the bottom 1/4 of each list have had to endure lengthy furloughs. I am sure it is being addressed.

I agree with your assessment that we could be the last guy standing. Just worried about how many will be standing in that line. Due to the fact that we have a lot of retirement at NWA, that should alleviate some of the furlough notices. Let's hope. I just remember being in this exact position after 9/11 when NWA was coming out with the announcement of how any furloughs there would be. I was about 300 from the bottom and to think that I had a fighting chance! Hope it turns out better this time, but living on hope alone doesn't cut it!

 

[FBN0223]

Both sides will enjoy a pay raise. And I think the B747-200 and the DC-9s are not the big elephants in room as you say, GL. NWA has one B747-200 flying military charters and a handful up in ANC flying freight. The DC-9 fleet will be around fifty aircraft or less by the time we merge.

And for ATL...nice layover for all but one or two months out the year. Is Spondivits still around?

 

[jester757]

I hope the Northwest guys don't get screwed. When I was on strike at Comair, the Northwest guys treated us like gold. Unlike the Delta guys who would show up at our picket line and heckle guys who were trying to get off food stamps...

FU you F'ing F.

I remember buying your lines coffee in CVG and paying an assesement every week for you. Putz, pure putz---

 

[General Lee]

Both sides will enjoy a pay raise. And I think the B747-200 and the DC-9s are not the big elephants in room as you say, GL. NWA has one B747-200 flying military charters and a handful up in ANC flying freight. The DC-9 fleet will be around fifty aircraft or less by the time we merge.

And for ATL...nice layover for all but one or two months out the year. Is Spondivits still around?

Yes, Spondivits is around, but a bunch of people recently got sick on some oysters I believe. Also, if you have LONG layovers here (like during a European 6 day trip with ATL in the middle), I bet you would go downtown. I know a lot of our other bases have ATL layovers, and they stay downtown if they are over 12 hours.

I hope you are right about the DC9s and 742s. It just seems obvious that they could be parked. As far as the rest of the fleet goes, we are still getting more widebodies and 73NGs. That, along with your work rule changes to reflect ours will hopefully mitigate furloughs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sedona16]

Does anybody that was at Delta during the last downturn/furloughs remember if pilots were given a chance at voluntary leave first before furloughing in order? The other question is if a person takes leave as opposed to furlough do they get any sort of unemployment from the gov?

 

[Fly4hire]

GL,

Do you guys still have "downtown" hotels in your PWA?

 

[737 Pylt]

I hope the Northwest guys don't get screwed. When I was on strike at Comair, the Northwest guys treated us like gold. Unlike the Delta guys who would show up at our picket line and heckle guys who were trying to get off food stamps...

Sorry Bob, I didn't know that was you.....:smash:
Did you ever get off food stamps??:laugh:

737

 

[General Lee]

GL,

Do you guys still have "downtown" hotels in your PWA?

Yes, yes we do. They are great. Long layovers are downtown.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

What constitutes a long layover? 16+?

 

[avrodriver]

For an 11 hr I see they have us at a Crystal City (airport hotel) in DC and for an 13 hr I see the Georgetown hotel...I'm guessing 12 hours+???

 

[General Lee]

What constitutes a long layover? 16+?

I think he is right, 12+ hours.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[generaltso]

Yes, yes we do. They are great. Long layovers are downtown.

Unless your in Jackson, MS. Yikes!

 

[tbkane]

Sedona,

Yes I REMEMBER!!! LOA's were offered but not many took them. The only ones that took them were the ones in line for furlough who had worked out deals ahead of time. LOA's don't work for pilots as we are usually the bread winners.

Also LOA's mean you don't get furlough pay or unemployment... FWIW

 

[Sedona16]

Sedona,

Yes I REMEMBER!!! LOA's were offered but not many took them. The only ones that took them were the ones in line for furlough who had worked out deals ahead of time. LOA's don't work for pilots as we are usually the bread winners.

Also LOA's mean you don't get furlough pay or unemployment... FWIW

Thanks for the info T. Thats sucks that if a person is willing to step out for a brother that might need to fly more is penalized with no furlough pay or unemployment.

Out of curiosity what is furlough pay and how long does it last?

Also, when furoughs start happening, I assume the jr guys in a senior base get dsplaced to the jr bases (ie SLC to NYC) and down to jr equipment 757 to MD?

 

[castle bravo]

[quote=FBN0223;1608729" The DC-9 fleet will be around fifty aircraft or less by the time we merge."



OK, but how do you propose that the potential furloughs corresponding to these 50 birds subsequently being parked be allocated?

 

[RedRum]

Out of curiosity what is furlough pay and how long does it last?

That question opens pandora's box. It all depends on what the reason is for the furlough. If they want to go the force majure route you may never get furlough pay like over 500 NWA pilots were on the receiving end. The other 300 some odd lucky pilots (who were furloughed later and for different reasons) had to file grievances to win their lawsuits. Only problem at that point was that even though we won that grievance, NWA decided to declare bankruptcy and it became a bankruptcy claim. It is just disgusting to see what NWA did to these guys that won and were entitled to that claim money. What was once a $20K+ claim has now turned in to pennies on the dollar because it was tied to the price of the stock.

Some of this has been mismanagement on the part of ALPA, however it is the same old case of NWA not doing the right thing and paying their debts to employees that win a judgement against them.

So I guess the short answer is if you are working for a company that respects the work you do, you will receive furlough pay right away. Other more disengenuous companies will try to claim force majure and then tell you to grieve it if you feel differently.

 

[General Lee]

Hey, I agree (of course) that I don't think any current Delta pilot should be furloughed for a parking of planes that weren't on our original property. That is why we should throw a fence around it (the DC9), just like the 744 that the NWA senior guys will obviously say needs a fence around it.

As far as Delta potentially parking ALL of the DC9s at once, I don't see that. NWA flies them all over the Midwest and NE from DTW, MEM, and MSP, and there aren't enough replacements for a mass parking. It would likely take awhile, and in the meantime we would get new 737-700s and even MD90s (yes, THOSE MD90s I keep talking about) to possibly fill in. I KNOW we have talked with Saudia for at least 20 of them. Who knows? I also think the DC9s could be used for a couple years or more as the "100 seater"---although with high fuel prices I don't know how long they will last. Hopefully they will last long enough for a replacement. Also, any blame should be pointed at BOTH MECs---since the JOINT contract they are working on now will affect those junior people involved now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

OK, but how do you propose that the potential furloughs corresponding to these 50 birds subsequently being parked be allocated?

Supposedly, the hiring that took place here already took those aircraft retirements into consideration. That info came from crew planning here at NWA. FWIW

 

[ThisistheDream]

If the DAL pilots want ONLY nwa pilot to take a hit for the DC-9 and the 747-200, then ONLY the DAL pilots will take the hit when the MD88 are to be parked which they have 100 plus of. You cant pick and choose what you want in a merger!! both groups will have to take some losses to become overall stronger..We can sit here all night point fingers at each other saying what they dont like about each other..

 

[General Lee]

If the DAL pilots want ONLY nwa pilot to take a hit for the DC-9 and the 747-200, then ONLY the DAL pilots will take the hit when the MD88 are to be parked which they have 100 plus of. You cant pick and choose what you want in a merger!! both groups will have to take some losses to become overall stronger..We can sit here all night point fingers at each other saying what they dont like about each other..

The MD88s are being replaced by current and future orders of the 737-700/800. I don't think there will be a mass parking of them. They are currently parking 10-15 of them though, but the reasons are for lease expiration and heavy mx. Since we are the major user of the MD88 (Allegiant and Midwest also use a few), we probably will get them back with a better lease deal eventually. Most of them were close to $280,000 a month prior to our BK, and are now close to $80,000 a month for the lease. The MD88 also has a lower CASM than the DC9 or even an RJ, and are more comfortable, along with being a lot newer.

What is the current replacement for the DC9 by the way? The E175? Thank Gawd you guys have the flow down to the left seat at Compass, something we don't have. Our replacement plane for the MD88 is the 737NG.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Supposedly, the hiring that took place here already took those aircraft retirements into consideration. That info came from crew planning here at NWA. FWIW

Good. Again, I don't think there would be a mass parking all at once, but the DC9 will be the first to go IF Delta has to park planes. We all know that. At least you have the option to go to the left seat of that E175 if needed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DYLIN]

Good. Again, I don't think there would be a mass parking all at once, but the DC9 will be the first to go IF Delta has to park planes. We all know that. At least you have the option to go to the left seat of that E175 if needed.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not trying to argue here but I do think it is worth mentioning only the most senior 160ish NWA furloughs would be in the left seat of a Compass airplane. The next approximately 160 would be in the right seat of Compass. Any NWA furloughs after that amount would be on the street. The top 10% of Compass is protected from furlough so that is where I came up with the approximate numbers.

Anyone think this will change in the joint contract, or stay the same?

 

[Superpilot92]

The MD88s are being replaced by current and future orders of the 737-700/800. I don't think there will be a mass parking of them. They are currently parking 10-15 of them though, but the reasons are for lease expiration and heavy mx. Since we are the major user of the MD88 (Allegiant and Midwest also use a few), we probably will get them back with a better lease deal eventually. Most of them were close to $280,000 a month prior to our BK, and are now close to $80,000 a month for the lease. The MD88 also has a lower CASM than the DC9 or even an RJ, and are more comfortable, along with being a lot newer.

What is the current replacement for the DC9 by the way? The E175? Thank Gawd you guys have the flow down to the left seat at Compass, something we don't have. Our replacement plane for the MD88 is the 737NG.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The current replacement is about to be 737's which will be bought by the soon to be joint airline. DAL keeps adding international routes and are maintaining the delivery of aircraft, some will say that the reason why the growth will continue even in these tough economic times is because of the merger with NWA. At some point you have to say that future events will take place because of these two great airlines joining together. I agree with what you said about the remaining dc9's and i two think they will be around for a while longer. One could also argue that decisions that NWA is making right now is in preparation for the merged carrier, who knows. One thing we do know is its about to happen and everything we do from this point will be together, replacement aircraft will be replacement aircraft for all of us. ALL NWA aircraft are about to be DELTA aircraft and ALL NWA pilots are about to be DELTA pilots, the sooner we all figure that out the sooner we can start moving forward as a single unified pilot group. I think we are on the right track now and this should be a pretty interesting week. We shall see :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Not trying to argue here but I do think it is worth mentioning only the most senior 160ish NWA furloughs would be in the left seat of a Compass airplane. The next approximately 160 would be in the right seat of Compass. Any NWA furloughs after that amount would be on the street. The top 10% of Compass is protected from furlough so that is where I came up with the approximate numbers.

Anyone think this will change in the joint contract, or stay the same?

I have heard it will stay. Also the captain flowbacks would be at 2nd year pay and the flowback FO's go on at 4th year FO pay if i remember right.

 

[DYLIN]

Thanks; I'm gathering information here as I have to make a decision in the next week and half. I'm at your former carrier with a class date at Compass and I'm really in a quandary as to what to do, but that will be for another thread.


Think much will come out this week in the way of the joint contract?

 

[castle bravo]

"it is worth mentioning only the most senior 160ish NWA furloughs would be in the left seat of a Compass airplane. The next approximately 160 would be in the right seat of Compass. "



The point is that at least SOME NWA guys would be protected. It would certainly make a difference if we were in the shoes of one of those 320 guys. The DAL junior folks face a different outcome which should be taken into consideration.

 

[Sedona16]

"it is worth mentioning only the most senior 160ish NWA furloughs would be in the left seat of a Compass airplane. The next approximately 160 would be in the right seat of Compass. "



The point is that at least SOME NWA guys would be protected. It would certainly make a difference if we were in the shoes of one of those 320 guys. The DAL junior folks face a different outcome which should be taken into consideration.

You guys are really reaching for every straw you can grab....its getting old.

 

[tbkane]

Furlough pay is based on years of service. Each year gives you one month pay up to six months at 65 hours. It is based on Force Manure. When I went out it equated to two weeks pay, but new hires in first year would be two weeks to a month.