Furloughed Options Pilots SCREWED??.Again ?

[William Holiday]

On a side note, this economy is really starting to pick-up, with the forth coming pilot shortage, I don't think now is the time to piss off your long term highly skillled employee group. In a year or two you may pay dearly for it.

A better option might be to merge useing DOH, or run two different companies with the same pay and benefits. Either way, now is not the time to piss on people's shoes.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Are you really so sure? They already did things out of seniority with the Global pilots. You are an "at will" employee. Management has NO requirement to honor seniority.

Date: August 26, 2014
To: Flight Options Pilots

"A Legacy Captain in his 16th Year will stay on the FO scale if hired as a Learjet Captain; and will transition to the FX scale in his 10th Year if hired as a Challenger Captain."

Sounds like a Flight Options pilot won't know what position he's getting until after his name in the hat via "bid."

So, Flight Options pilots put in for the move and then management picks and chooses who flies what. Great deal.


Also, please keep using the word "bid."

As in "bid" over here. "Bid" for the position at Flexjet.

Good stuff for a lawsuit.

This is an excerpt from the letter you received:

4)​A pilot transitioning to Flexjet will retain their Flight Options Seniority number. They will also be given a placeholder position at the bottom of the current Flexjet seniority list. The seniority position will be used for purposes of upgrading and pay at Flexjet should they retain their position for an extended period of time. This will also be used to monitor their parallel pay position in order to determine when parity occurs per item 3.

Sounds pretty clear to me. When your new FJ seniority number can hold Captain, you can hold Captain.

 

[slowtation capt]

This is an excerpt from the letter you received:

4)​A pilot transitioning to Flexjet will retain their Flight Options Seniority number. They will also be given a placeholder position at the bottom of the current Flexjet seniority list. The seniority position will be used for purposes of upgrading and pay at Flexjet should they retain their position for an extended period of time. This will also be used to monitor their parallel pay position in order to determine when parity occurs per item 3.

Sounds pretty clear to me. When your new FJ seniority number can hold Captain, you can hold Captain.

Sounds pretty clear to me:

"18th year and more at FO includes EOY bonus.
A BJ/PH Captain in his 14th Year will stay on the FO scale
and will transition to the FX scale in his 7th year if hired
as a Learjet Captain; or will transition to the FX scale in
his 4th Year if hired as a Challenger Captain"

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Sounds pretty clear to me:

"18th year and more at FO includes EOY bonus.
A BJ/PH Captain in his 14th Year will stay on the FO scale
and will transition to the FX scale in his 7th year if hired
as a Learjet Captain; or will transition to the FX scale in
his 4th Year if hired as a Challenger Captain"

Was this out out by the union or management?

 

[Fresh Air]

It was "out out" by Joe Salata, VP of Flight Operations in an email to Flight Options pilots dated August 26. Slowtation's quote is accurate; it was copied verbatim from the email.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

It was "out out" by Joe Salata, VP of Flight Operations in an email to Flight Options pilots dated August 26. Slowtation's quote is accurate; it was copied verbatim from the email.

I believe the problem is with the terminology.

Maybe the FO pilots coming to FJ will call themselves CAptains, but without a 299 line check (which they will not receive) they will definitely not be a PIC.

I am sorry that your VP put a glimmer of hope in your eyes that you might get to screw the FJ pilots, but that is just not the case.

 

[slowtation capt]

I believe the problem is with the terminology.

Maybe the FO pilots coming to FJ will call themselves CAptains, but without a 299 line check (which they will not receive) they will definitely not be a PIC.

I am sorry that your VP put a glimmer of hope in your eyes that you might get to screw the FJ pilots, but that is just not the case.

It's not about FO pilots hoping to screw Flex pilots. Because none of us are-try to comprehend that. It's KR that's doing the screwing by allowing Options pilots to move to Flex and promoting the possibility of being hired as a LR or Challenger captain.

 

[slowtation capt]

Are you the holder of the key for the .299 ride?
You didn't know that or VP put an email out stating "if hired as a captain" but what you can positively state that they will not be receiving .299 rides.
Or is this just you and you stating that you will not give a .299 ride.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Are you the holder of the key for the .299 ride?
You didn't know that or VP put an email out stating "if hired as a captain" but what you can positively state that they will not be receiving .299 rides.
Or is this just you and you stating that you will not give a .299 ride.

I can definitely state that I won't give them a 299 ride since I don't give anyone 299 rides. I thought you guys knew everything about me.

I am sorry that letter said what it did. He is NOT the VP at FJ and I don't believe he told you what he was supposed to.

I just don't want a bunch of FO pilots showing up on day one of training at FJ being pissed when they find out they are not going to be captains. That will do no one any good.

 

[The Architect]

Nice Try

I believe the problem is with the terminology.

Maybe the FO pilots coming to FJ will call themselves CAptains, but without a 299 line check (which they will not receive) they will definitely not be a PIC.

I am sorry that your VP put a glimmer of hope in your eyes that you might get to screw the FJ pilots, but that is just not the case.

Nice try...

Better yet - this is a publication produced by DW, JW and JS presented to the union just hours before released. Released by the same regardless of who the "from" says in the email.

So, it's from DW, JW and JS at the direction of their superiors.

Note that the announcement sent to Flexjet pilots differs from the announcement sent to Flight Options pilots.

Either way - the language presented to the Flight Options pilots with regard to "Captains" is accurately copied from the announcement.

What will really happen? Who knows - after all, it is an "at will" employment.

 

[SkyCat45]

I cannot believe anyone that still has a job at Options (and has had for the past 5 years) would even consider moving to Flexjet before the furloughed guys (you do remember the guys that had to sit on the sidelines so the company we had could survive through that poor economic time) that are swimming in the pool and have gone through the hiring process and are just waiting for a class date. To think our fellow pilots would not honor that sacrifice made by the people furloughed and would fill vacancies before them sickens me. Some thanks that is!!

 

[slowtation capt]

I am sorry that letter said what it did. He is NOT the VP at FJ and I don't believe he told you what he was supposed to.

Funny that you think that Salata actually sat down and wrote that letter with the FlexJet "offer" that was sent to Options pilots.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Nice try...

Better yet - this is a publication produced by DW, JW and JS presented to the union just hours before released. Released by the same regardless of who the "from" says in the email.

So, it's from DW, JW and JS at the direction of their superiors.

Note that the announcement sent to Flexjet pilots differs from the announcement sent to Flight Options pilots.

Either way - the language presented to the Flight Options pilots with regard to "Captains" is accurately copied from the announcement.

What will really happen? Who knows - after all, it is an "at will" employment.

How about someone post the whole message. It is easy for you to take a small section and spin in as you feel fit.

Until the whole message is posted further discussion on this topic will produce nothing but inferrance and speculation.

The ball is in your court.

 

[William Holiday]

I cannot believe anyone that still has a job at Options (and has had for the past 5 years) would even consider moving to Flexjet before the furloughed guys (you do remember the guys that had to sit on the sidelines so the company we had could survive through that poor economic time) that are swimming in the pool and have gone through the hiring process and are just waiting for a class date. To think our fellow pilots would not honor that sacrifice made by the people furloughed and would fill vacancies before them sickens me. Some thanks that is!!
.........................................Quote. From SkyCat 45...................................


.................................BINGO ! We have a Winner !!.......................

 

[William Holiday]

I cannot believe anyone that still has a job at Options (and has had for the past 5 years) would even consider moving to Flexjet before the furloughed guys (you do remember the guys that had to sit on the sidelines so the company we had could survive through that poor economic time) that are swimming in the pool and have gone through the hiring process and are just waiting for a class date. To think our fellow pilots would not honor that sacrifice made by the people furloughed and would fill vacancies before them sickens me. Some thanks that is!!

Thats the truth.

 

[luckydog]

It sounds like the Options posters are saying that they are being told that Options crew members "transferred" to FJ will be similar to an off-the-street new hire captain (except for their pay). Is that the thinking over there? If that's the case I'm very surprised that every FO didn't apply.

The story at FJ, as posted on Yammer, is that the Options crew members will be just like any other new hire (except for pay).

We all will be wearing 4 stripes and flying from the left seat soon, but that doesn't mean we'll all be paid as a captain.

 

[jetwash]

We all will be wearing 4 stripes and flying from the left seat soon, but that doesn't mean we'll all be paid as a captain.

Do you guys swap seats or do FO's fly from the right seat all the time?

At Options we usually swap seats every other day.

 

[Fresh Air]

As tiresome as I may find TWA's rabid anti-union bias, in the matter of PIC assignment, I believe his information to be correct. I have taken the time to do my homework and speak with the parties involved. The current plan is that the transferring FO pilots will wear 4 stripes and swap seats, but WILL NOT be assigned as legal PIC of the Flexjet aircraft. Upgrades to official PIC status, schedule, and vacation bidding will be determined by the pilot's Flexjet seniority number, which in the case of Captain upgrades, means essentially never, unless there is a massive influx of aircraft there.

 

[slowtation capt]

How about someone post the whole message. It is easy for you to take a small section and spin in as you feel fit.

Until the whole message is posted further discussion on this topic will produce nothing but inferrance and speculation.

The ball is in your court.

Are you purposely telling us to break the confidentiality language of an email sent out written by KR's lawyers through our VP of Ops.

Didn't you go on a rant once about confidentiality of the companies emails.

Oh what do I care, as soon as I can I will, just can't do it from this device at this time.

 

[The Architect]

Confidential

How about someone post the whole message. It is easy for you to take a small section and spin in as you feel fit.

Until the whole message is posted further discussion on this topic will produce nothing but inferrance and speculation.

The ball is in your court.

Is that alright now?

Your warned that individuals could get in a lot of trouble for posting internal company communications.

 

[dime line]

I cannot believe anyone that still has a job at Options (and has had for the past 5 years) would even consider moving to Flexjet before the furloughed guys (you do remember the guys that had to sit on the sidelines so the company we had could survive through that poor economic time) that are swimming in the pool and have gone through the hiring process and are just waiting for a class date. To think our fellow pilots would not honor that sacrifice made by the people furloughed and would fill vacancies before them sickens me. Some thanks that is!!

Just wait till you see the names, my bet will be, all the usual suspects.

 

[luckydog]

First FJ isn't being fair by letting furloughed pilots move get back to work at Flexjet ahead of current Options pilots, now the Options guys are screwing the furloughed by switching sides.

This whole thing is ill conceived as there is no way to keep the unified pilots at Options happy.

As I've already said, scrap the program and take applications from pilots that want to go to work without all this extra baggage (baggage fees aren't reimbursed).

 

[William Holiday]

First FJ isn't being fair by letting furloughed pilots move get back to work at Flexjet ahead of current Options pilots, now the Options guys are screwing the furloughed by switching sides.

This whole thing is ill conceived as there is no way to keep the unified pilots at Options happy.

As I've already said, scrap the program and take applications from pilots that want to go to work without all this extra baggage (baggage fees aren't reimbursed).

NO furloughed guy's are getting hired at Flex, the offer is now going out to active FO pilots. BTW why would any FO pilot want to move over to FLEX to go straight to the bottom of the list....Why would anyone do that?

When options absorbed another company some years ago they at least tried to be fair to that pilot group, from what I understand, useing a % of DOH to adjust the seniority list. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

scab-like, maybe

From THE US MASTER PILOT SCABLIST: THE UNIONIST'S EDITION

A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You'd be Doing if You Weren't on Strike.

[So by definition, the Boot-Lickers going to FJ are NOT scabs! But they sure exhibit Scab-like behavior & traits! Who else would advance their own career on the backs of a furloughed brother or sister!]

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

ONCE A SCAB, ALWAYS A SCAB - NEVER FORGET!

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

From THE US MASTER PILOT SCABLIST: THE UNIONIST'S EDITION

A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You'd be Doing if You Weren't on Strike.

[So by definition, the Boot-Lickers going to FJ are NOT scabs! But they sure exhibit Scab-like behavior & traits! Who else would advance their own career on the backs of a furloughed brother or sister!]

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

ONCE A SCAB, ALWAYS A SCAB - NEVER FORGET!

No one here is on strike.

People in is industry throw the word scab around way to often. It defines a specific action which is no where near happening here.

I understand emotions get heated, but using the word scab when it doesn't apply shows your lack of understanding of what a scab really is. And by definition scab like behavior is a scab. It's black and white,you either are or are not being a scab.

If you really believe an active FO pilot going to FJ is a scab you would need to make sure your union kicked them out for being a scab. The union would then need to exhaust every avenue to have that scab terminated. You would also want to add that name to the national scab list so they could never get another union job in aviation.

Is this really what you are proposing, or are you just emotional and don't really understand what you are saying? I am sure the second is the case.

 

[Rupert.]

NO furloughed guy's are getting hired at Flex, the offer is now going out to active FO pilots. BTW why would any FO pilot want to move over to FLEX to go straight to the bottom of the list....Why would anyone do that?

1. Get away from our suck ass, speed bump union
2. Fly with happy pilots that are not a part of our suck ass, speed bump union
3. Fly nicer and newer airplanes
4. Make the same amount of money and eventually more money than you would at Options with less responsibilities. (Coffee, Ice, Papers and Clearance all day long!)
5. 401k matching

I think the better question here is why wouldn't you do it.

 

[EngineThunder]

1. Get away from our suck ass, speed bump union
2. Fly with happy pilots that are not a part of our suck ass, speed bump union
3. Fly nicer and newer airplanes
4. Make the same amount of money and eventually more money than you would at Options with less responsibilities. (Coffee, Ice, Papers and Clearance all day long!)
5. 401k matching

I think the better question here is why wouldn't you do it.

If coffee, ice, papers, and getting a clearance are overwhelming your daily responsibilities you have other issues. Are you that Special Ed guy that people are talking about?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

1. Get away from our suck ass, speed bump union
2. Fly with happy pilots that are not a part of our suck ass, speed bump union
3. Fly nicer and newer airplanes
4. Make the same amount of money and eventually more money than you would at Options with less responsibilities. (Coffee, Ice, Papers and Clearance all day long!)
5. 401k matching

I think the better question here is why wouldn't you do it.

Someone gets it.

 

[Praetorian]

1. Get away from our suck ass, speed bump union
2. Fly with happy pilots that are not a part of our suck ass, speed bump union
3. Fly nicer and newer airplanes
4. Make the same amount of money and eventually more money than you would at Options with less responsibilities. (Coffee, Ice, Papers and Clearance all day long!)
5. 401k matching

I think the better question here is why wouldn't you do it.

Here are the reasons our union gave. They sound like good ones to me.

• Accepting a position at Flexjet ahead of a furloughed Flight Options pilot who wants to work there undermines a basic union principle and causes an economic injury to a furloughed Flight Options pilot and their dependents.

• If you accept management?s offer of employment, your terms and conditions of employment at Flexjet are not guaranteed. You are an at will employee. Your wages, benefits and working conditions are subject to change from the moment you start working there.

• The Union cannot represent you at Flexjet. There is no legally binding grievance or arbitration procedure to protect you from unjust discipline or discharge. There is no contractual procedure for addressing training irregularities or check ride failures that could end up in your PRIA record. Management can change your rate of pay with or without notice to you, and even pay you less than a junior pilot in the same equipment and cockpit, which their pay plan suggests they intend to do. When you take a vacation from Flexjet, if ever, it is at management?s total discretion and sick leave policies are subject to change.

• You go to the bottom of the seniority list at Flexjet even if you are more senior than Flexjet pilots and Flight Options pilots and managers who are already working there. Importantly, your position on the Flexjet seniority list could affect your position on the integrated seniority list that will take effect when the two carriers are fully integrated. Flexjet is under no legal obligation to honor your seniority if you go to work there. That is true for purposes of furlough, recall, schedule bidding, vacations, and vacancies. The pay system set forth in the company?s offer makes clear that seniority is not controlling for Flight Options pilots who go to work there. When it comes to Flight Options pilots, Flexjet is free to change the seniority rules with or without notice to you and you have no legal recourse to challenge it.

• As a result of the close corporate relationship between OneSky, Flight Options and Flexjet, any employment or services contract offered to you by DW or any other representative of OneSky or the two carriers is unenforceable because you are already covered by a collective bargaining agreement (CBA), including during any period of a leave from Fight Options pursuant to the CBA.

 

[Praetorian]

Someone gets it.

He's one of the guys I was warning you about. He will soon find reasons to hate it over there too and start dragging you guys down, just like he has with us.

You will love him. I promise!