Fuel prices up and Delta Saabs stay

[On Your Six]

Well as of this moment none of the companies have any furloughs, so that no longer is an issue.

If there were any at the announcement of the merger, they will likely be at the bottom of the list via arbitration.


OYS

 

[CptMurf]

No offense to you, but furloughs deserve to be on the bottom of the SLI. It's the whole "career expectation" thing in arbitration. Like the Midwest Express guys who were furloughed were basically stapled to the bottom of the SLI at Republic.

I doubt you would say the same if you were one of the furloughees.

 

[LearLove]

No offense to you, but furloughs deserve to be on the bottom of the SLI. It's the whole "career expectation" thing in arbitration. Like the Midwest Express guys who were furloughed were basically stapled to the bottom of the SLI at Republic.

So in another 10 to 15 years when you have 15 years at your company and they sell/merge your aircraft to a "partner airline", lay you off, give your job to a kid that is in the 6th grade right now, and "tac" you on to the bottom of the list it will be OK, right?

What goes around comes around.....

 

[AiRegency]

So in another 10 to 15 years when you have 15 years at your company and they sell/merge your aircraft to a "partner airline", lay you off, give your job to a kid that is in the 6th grade right now, and "tac" you on to the bottom of the list it will be OK, right?

Yep. Them's are the breaks. Welcome to the industry.

 

[DoinTime]

So in another 10 to 15 years when you have 15 years at your company and they sell/merge your aircraft to a "partner airline", lay you off, give your job to a kid that is in the 6th grade right now, and "tac" you on to the bottom of the list it will be OK, right?

What goes around comes around.....

So you think its fair for people who don't bring a job into a merger to get equal treat with those that do bring a job? Someone on here said it before, seniority integration is a fixed quantity. In order for one pilot to do better, someone else has to do worse.

 

[Yodafly]

The recall should not affect SLI. Its a snapshot on date of purchase. Any changes that happen after that point are not considered. AKA Colgan new hires changing the relative position of the colgan pilots for the better.

 

[callowayhd]

No offense to you, but furloughs deserve to be on the bottom of the SLI. It's the whole "career expectation" thing in arbitration. Like the Midwest Express guys who were furloughed were basically stapled to the bottom of the SLI at Republic.

Mesaba Airlines had a lot more career expectation than pinnacle. You should not be gloating about how pinnacle bought Mesaba and that they should be stapled. Furloughed or not there are many Mesaba pilots who went there over pinnacle because of career expectations. The flow through being the biggest factor in giving ALL Mesaba pilots higher career expectations than any other pinnacle pilot.

In an industry where oil is playing a huge role, who really saved who? Mesaba who is brining 41 crj900s with a Saab fleet that might not be as dead as everyone thought because of its fuel efficiency, or pinnacle who operates 120 or more crj200s which will be out the door ASAP. Even Colgan brings more opportunities for flying than pinnacle airlines with their Q400's.

Just because Pinnacle holdings shares the name with Pinnacle airlines, does not mean your airline bought Mesaba. Mesaba airlines, Colgan airlines and Pinnacle airlines, are all under the same holdings company, get off your pinnacle airlines high horse because they are bringing the most liability to the table with this merger.

Unfortunately large RJ flying in the future of the regionals, add to that turboprops that can replace 50 seat flying and Pinnacle airline pilots are lucky that they aquired both Colgan and MEsaba, not the other way around.

 

[altimaklr]

Ya except the 9E CR2's are some of the newest in the world and are under contract til at least 2018. When the last delta CR2 flight lands it will more than likely be a Pinnacle plane. Next?

 

[DoinTime]

Just because Pinnacle holdings shares the name with Pinnacle airlines, does not mean your airline bought Mesaba. Mesaba airlines, Colgan airlines and Pinnacle airlines, are all under the same holdings company, get off your pinnacle airlines high horse because they are bringing the most liability to the table with this merger.

Who bought Big Sky?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Who bought Big Sky?

Nobody, when Mair holdings failed to use them to bust the Mesaba union and contract, Mair simply sold off their assets and payed out the shairholders and ceased to exist.

 

[bri5150]

Who bought Big Sky?

See WMUSIGPI's avatar.

 

[DoinTime]

Nobody, when Mair holdings failed to use them to bust the Mesaba union and contract, Mair simply sold off their assets and payed out the shairholders and ceased to exist.

Looks like at some point in your life you thought that the Mesaba you work for bought Big Sky.

I'm guessing most of these guys are moaning about the FO payscales. Yes for 900 and even 200 fo's we are below average thanks to the "blended payscale" However the Saab fo's are well above industry average. Of course nobody wants to mention that... Personally I think the blended payscale is a lousy deal, but that boat sailed in 96 when I was still in college. Getting that removed was a priority in the 2004 contract until the screwjob whipsaw of buying Big Sky and threatening to give all the flying to them came along. Priorities shifted to scope being a bigger deal (and proved its worth during the scam bankruptcy). Also everyone forgets while Comair was voluntarily giving up pay in the hope of getting E170's (that ended up at Shuttle America anyway) Mesaba did NOT give ANYTHING up to get awarded the 20 CRJ-200s back in 2005. Granted thanks to the scam bankruptcy we never got 18 of those. Not to mention the pay cuts we took were forced because of a crooked judge and judicial system. We did keep almost everything in the work rules and got the snapback provisions on our pay (which are taking effect right now)
Remeber our pay + workrules (while still far from perfect) still would beat the crap off of Mesa Pay +$10 and their workrules.....

 

[gojo]

Looks like at some point in your life you thought that the Mesaba you work for bought Big Sky.

What Wmusigpi wrote is correct. Again it's apples to oranges in this situation. Just like the LOA of 1998 or whenever it was. If we remained separate companies and management whipsawed us against each other, then it would apply, but were ONE companie now. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.

 

[suupah]

WOW. Welcome back to your sh*tty job at Mesaba, now you get to commute to LGA to sit reserve on the Saab.

That depends. Hopefully this ISL thing gets figured out soon and they can bid something else. there are a lot o folk who want an LGA base in the combined company

 

[Ridgeback]

Just ran into my Delta buddy...CP during base visit told him no hiring this year. MD-90's are slow to get certified...they look to keep Saabs for the lift and fuel prices..

 

[suupah]

Mesaba Airlines had a lot more career expectation than pinnacle. You should not be gloating about how pinnacle bought Mesaba and that they should be stapled. Furloughed or not there are many Mesaba pilots who went there over pinnacle because of career expectations. The flow through being the biggest factor in giving ALL Mesaba pilots higher career expectations than any other pinnacle pilot.

In an industry where oil is playing a huge role, who really saved who? Mesaba who is brining 41 crj900s with a Saab fleet that might not be as dead as everyone thought because of its fuel efficiency, or pinnacle who operates 120 or more crj200s which will be out the door ASAP. Even Colgan brings more opportunities for flying than pinnacle airlines with their Q400's.

Just because Pinnacle holdings shares the name with Pinnacle airlines, does not mean your airline bought Mesaba. Mesaba airlines, Colgan airlines and Pinnacle airlines, are all under the same holdings company, get off your pinnacle airlines high horse because they are bringing the most liability to the table with this merger.

Unfortunately large RJ flying in the future of the regionals, add to that turboprops that can replace 50 seat flying and Pinnacle airline pilots are lucky that they aquired both Colgan and MEsaba, not the other way around.

Being a CJC pilot, it kills to me to hear what a windfall we got with this contract as if we brought nothing to the table. This company brought as much if not more, long term, to the table than anyone else, because of the future we had laid out in front of us which has already and will continue to benefit everyone in the combined group.

MESABA pilots are getting recalled into saab positions formally flown by CJC in deals and relationships established by CJC. How much Usairways flying did Mesaba fly before this acquisition? Did they even have any at risk arrangements before this? Right there is an example of the value that CJC brought to the table, and I am certain that is just the beginning of what is to come with CJC flying for United, Continental and USairways not to mention the new stuff coming with other codes for the Q.

 

[gojo]

Being a CJC pilot, it kills to me to hear what a windfall we got with this contract as if we brought nothing to the table. This company brought as much if not more, long term, to the table than anyone else, because of the future we had laid out in front of us which has already and will continue to benefit everyone in the combined group.

MESABA pilots are getting recalled into saab positions formally flown by CJC in deals and relationships established by CJC. How much Usairways flying did Mesaba fly before this acquisition? Did they even have any at risk arrangements before this? Right there is an example of the value that CJC brought to the table, and I am certain that is just the beginning of what is to come with CJC flying for United, Continental and USairways not to mention the new stuff coming with other codes for the Q.

Just for the record, it's not the Mesaba pilots saying this

 

[bri5150]

Just ran into my Delta buddy...CP during base visit told him no hiring this year. MD-90's are slow to get certified...they look to keep Saabs for the lift and fuel prices..

Anyone have an official announcement of this? So far it's all rumor.

 

[flyn96]

Oh, please no! That's the most uncomfortble POS I have ever ridden on. The rock hard seats, noise, and the seatback velcro pulling my hair out is just unbearable.
All that and being imprisoned on board for about ten minutes after landing until they feel it safe to let you off this bucket of bolts is simply unbearable. These things need to be turned into razor blades asap.

When folks surf orbitz for 7 hours trying to save 8 dollars, they will take their turbo props and like them!

 

[Ridgeback]

Anyone have an official announcement of this? So far it's all rumor.

As much of a rumor as anything on this board but I did just have lunch with him last week and what he told me could be correct.

1. Delta hired off the street and took flows last year...since then they have parked dc9's and their step child MD-90's are still being held up by the feds = too many pilots.

2. Upset in the Mid-East and improving economy at home is creating a huge demand for fuel = need to stay in markets.

3. 22 more crj200's parked this year (per Richard Anderson)

4. The Saab Leases had a ONE time early out that happened in 2010-2011. Delta too it, now they can Pinniacle err Mesaba can negoiate their own rates and Delta can get them off their books...

5. All makes sense from an accountants point of view...not so much from a pilots...

It looks like there is strong evidance to suggest that Delta is infact keeping the saabs

ALSO Mesaba Recalls ALL furloughed pilots in One Shot...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Anyone have an official announcement of this? So far it's all rumor.

There won't be until early summer. Anything up until that is just rumor.

FYI- if you were on furlough at the time of the announcement of the merger, you will be considered on furlough for the SLI.

Oh.. and career expectations for XJ= CRJ-900. For Pinnacle: CRJ-900. That's it....

 

[bri5150]

There won't be until early summer. Anything up until that is just rumor.

FYI- if you were on furlough at the time of the announcement of the merger, you will be considered on furlough for the SLI.

Oh.. and career expectations for XJ= CRJ-900. For Pinnacle: CRJ-900. That's it....

Wait, are you one of the six in the SLI negotiations? I am pretty sure you shouldn't be spouting off information on FI!!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Wait, are you one of the six in the SLI negotiations? I am pretty sure you shouldn't be spouting off information on FI!!

It's called being educated on previous integrations. You should try it.

 

[bri5150]

It's called being educated on previous integrations. You should try it.

Oh, so which previous integration has involved 3 regionals, two of them hiring and one with furloughs that got called back before SLI was agreed to?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Oh, so which previous integration has involved 3 regionals, two of them hiring and one with furloughs that got called back before SLI was agreed to?

It's 3 airlines. That's what matters... you're making it more special than it is.

 

[DoinTime]

Oh, so which previous integration has involved 3 regionals, two of them hiring and one with furloughs that got called back before SLI was agreed to?

The republic merger that just came out is a very similar template. Furloughs to the bottom whether they were recalled or not. Status as of the date of acquisition prevailed. Also interesting was no regard to DOH

 

[CptMurf]

The republic merger that just came out is a very similar template. Furloughs to the bottom whether they were recalled or not. Status as of the date of acquisition prevailed. Also interesting was no regard to DOH

Not even close to the same template, starting with the multiple unions represented. There was no obligation of a fair integration. All of us are ALPA, which has a specific merger policy, here's an overview http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0=&tabid=3345.

Some people need to read this... Notice it says "career expectation." Not expectation at time of purchase. Now, it does state status, which for the furloughs could come into play, but it should not be a double jeopardy type of thing. Yes, their status is furloughed, but their career expectation is not to stay that way.

I can't believe the scheming being done to gain at someone else's loss. A person got hired before you at another airline, their career expectation was the same as yours, to upgrade quickly. Unfortunately, their holdings company decided to reduce their airlines flying and sell them (at about the same time, and not to your airline, but your holdings company), causing them to be furloughed. They are now scrambling to feed and house their families, while you pick up open time at 150% pay. Now you want to screw them, and the rest of your new found brother pilots, out of seniority so you can upgrade quicker, or hold weekends off.

Pathetic.

 

[AiRegency]

How could anybody here be scheming? What sway could anyone here possibly have over this mediation (soon to be arbitration) process? You should know as well as anyone that this thing will be settled by Bloch in binding arbitration. He's an objective, professional, outside observer and will make as fair and reasonable decision as anybody could based on all of the facts and applicable rules and laws. Why do you care what anybody thinks? Just don't come crying to us when your expectations are trashed and we are proven correct cause all you'll hear is "I told ya so".

 

[DoinTime]

Not even close to the same template, starting with the multiple unions represented. There was no obligation of a fair integration. All of us are ALPA, which has a specific merger policy, here's an overview http://www.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WpYTk6T1Hs0=&tabid=3345.

No requirement for a fair integration? Have you ever heard of the McCaskill Bond Amendment? Obviously not. ALPA merger policy provides for the same things as Senators McCaskill and Bond legislated just a few years ago. A fair and equitable seniority merger.

Some people need to read this... Notice it says "career expectation." Not expectation at time of purchase. Now, it does state status, which for the furloughs could come into play, but it should not be a double jeopardy type of thing. Yes, their status is furloughed, but their career expectation is not to stay that way.

What kind of expectation (other than complete arrogant speculation) did XJ pilots have prior to the acquisition? The longer term expectation for Mesaba pilots before the purchase was for continued furloughs and downgrades in everyone with their feet on the grounds eyes.

I can't believe the scheming being done to gain at someone else's loss. A person got hired before you at another airline, their career expectation was the same as yours, to upgrade quickly. Unfortunately, their holdings company decided to reduce their airlines flying and sell them (at about the same time, and not to your airline, but your holdings company), causing them to be furloughed. They are now scrambling to feed and house their families, while you pick up open time at 150% pay. Now you want to screw them, and the rest of your new found brother pilots, out of seniority so you can upgrade quicker, or hold weekends off.

Pathetic.

One mans scheming is another mans equitability. From our side of the fence, the Mesaba pilots are scheming to steal our weekends off and our upgrades that we already have or have a real, near term expectation for such. Its unfortunate that mesaba brings 1150 or so pilots into this merger and only about 600 longterm jobs but don't expect pinnacle or colgan pilots to pay for the decline of Mesaba Airlines.

I've not heard of any alpa-alpa seniority arbitrations that have given much weight to DOH. I hope the Mesaba pilots haven't already established their expectations around this measurement because it will certainly be a disappointment when the ruling comes in.

 

[CptMurf]

See, I would see it different. XJ and 9L long term expectation was to fly the most fuel efficient aircraft in the regional industry, while bidding for more flying as the 50 seat market declined. 9Es long term expectation was to have the majority of their flying (50 seat operations) at risk due to rising fuel and MX costs. They could also expect continued, protracted negotiations with no end in sight, and a potential for furloughs if they lost flying. Where XJ pilots expected their descent contract to continue for 2 more years, and although staginent, with a potential for growth.

XJ pilots are not trying to steal your weekends off, or upgrade potential. They just want to integrate fairly, with weight given to longevity. Your idea would put a 9E or 9L new hire senior to an XJ furlough that has 2 years seniority and experience. We all know timing is everything in this industry, but credit should be given to those that been in the industry longer, worked for the viability of their carrier, and experience learned.

My position is DOH based on when you entered this industry. Your first day of training at your first 121 carrier. That's the day you signed your life away, it should be DOH from that. It would affect seniority through the entire list. Street CAs, OH-XJT furloughs, 9E-XJ transfers, the whole list would be righted for the wrongs we have felt over the years. If a person is junior to me because of a furlough somewhere else and it effects me, so be it. Let them end up senior to me, they deserve it.