FTC Private Air Terminal Morristown...BEWARE

[thatpilotguy]

I learned about hold harmless agreements from a previous Chief Pilot. I had no knowledge that anything like this existed...my response to any of these agreements is that they must be reviewed by our legal department before I am able to sign anything. Which is true, and also hard argue against.

To be honest I have no idea what FTC's agreement includes...but I can tell you that I didn't sign it and that really added heat to our dissagreement. Which leads me to believe that had I signed it I would have been on the hook for any number of additional items they felt justified in adding.

The moral of the story is this...take my experience and way it against the cost of doing business with FTC. I think you will see that the potential cost savings isn't worth the experience...especially if Signature is willing to negotiate pricing. The attitudes and behavior that I and our company officials experienced there should be punished...through loss of business and it is my goal to help that happen.

 

[jet2work]

Not to call you out on the courtesy fuel issue...but I don't believe in that term. It's not a courtesy to purchase fuel, if the price is not competetive with other locations or our fuel price at home plus the cost of tankering I'm not buying it. It's not unlike fueling at the cheapest gas station in town, while driving by the others that are a quarter more.

Well I liken it more to a situation where you stop at the gas station where gas is a quarter more and use their restroom and refill your coffee mug for free, clean your windshield, put air in your tires, and then drive across town and buy gas from someone else.

I think that I have made it perfectly clear that I am not a fan of Signature, but I was talking about buying fuel from smaller independent FBO's or chains that don't try screwing their customers as a matter of course. As the name implies it is simply a courtesy to buy fuel from them. Just like when you go out for dinner and tip your waiter. There is no law requiring it. The prices are printed clearly on the menu. The owner could pay the person a higher wage and include it in the price. I would just be careful about going to a restaurant and letting your waiter know before the meal that you don't believe in tipping (after all it is just a courtesy).

If I am gonna kick back in your lazy boy and watch your TV, drink your coffee, hit on your counter girls etc... I will toss you a few bones so that you will be here next time I stop by. There probably isn't an FBO in the country that can compete with the price that a flight department with it's own fuel farm pays for Jet A.

If you invite me over to your house for a "FREE" Thanksgiving dinner, I'll bring your wife some flowers and you a bottle of Scotch. That's just how I am.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I understand what your saying jet2work, but I still don't agree.

We and I'm sure you do as well negiate fuel price prior to departure. More often than not we are able to reach a price that is the same, if not better than our tankered fuel price from home. While our home airport fuel price is great, moving it around the country does cost...about 6% an hour based on some pretty detailed calculations...it doesn't take but a 2 hour flight to level the fuel price playing field. Combine that with CAA fuel pricing (which any FBO can apply to be a member of) and there is no reason to be purchasing courtesy fuel. Not knowing what volume of fuel being purchased is considered a "courtesy" it's difficult to do the math, but I would assume that what ever minimal amount of fuel your purchasing offers much less of a profit margin than the bulk fuel order I'm striving for with a discounted per gallon price. If the FBO is unwilling to make the math work, which I'm happy to share with them, then that's their problem and I'll buy gas from somewhere else. It's funny actually, when I started really working on fuel pricing, I was shocked to findout how much the FBO's were willing to negiate. Where we use to tanker well north of 50% of the time, now with a few phone calls, on a muli-leg trip we plan our FBO's and fuel purchasing in more detail and save even more money while, tankering less and purchasing more on the road.

I do acknowledge the use of coffee, dust buster, tv and recliner, but that's the business, and prior to the run up in fuel price and the advent of the ramp charge fuel price wasn't nearly the player it is today. Business, like anything in life evolves, with that evolution comes change, much of which we don't like, such as in the form or fees. Will buying courtesy fuel stop those fees from spreading, I doubt it...but negiating a more favorable price will move the fuel out of his truck and enable the FBO to purchase their next load of fuel at a more reduced rate, empowering his negiating position. I know this is true based on conversations with an FBO manager we visit regularly.

We would not be doing our owners and operators justice if we did not operate in the most cost effective mannor possible. I view courtesy fuel as an un-needed extra expense, infact wasting money when we should be doing everything possible to save the company money where and when we have the opportunity.

It's a difference of opinion, I understand. I don't view myself as dis-courteous by any means. I would gladly repay the bottle of scotch, by offering you a glass, a comfortable chair and hopefully a good meal to go along with it. That's just how I am as well...

 

[chingaso]

I think I remember FTC. isn't that the flight school that started selling jet fuel? The one where you have to have a key issued to you to get in and out of the facility, with the convoluted taxi route? Fuel prices notwithstanding, it still felt like we were taking our million-dollar clients in and out of a flight school. With little service.

The first time I experienced a document such as that was at Avitat HPN. Ice storm approaching, they pretty much got you by the cajones. "Yes, we'll hangar your airplane, but you must first sign an agreement that makes you responsible if we dent your airplane." I couldn't believe they were serious. I just tell them that I do not have the authority to sign such a document, that they will have to play the fax-game with our legal department. I would think that a flight department would need to cover that base when initially setting up a relationship with the respective FBOs, an consequently, the FBO in good faith should explain these little "extra" strings before the jet shows up, not after. Sounds shady.

I used to fly for a fractional that was zealously trying to cut costs in order to justify the exponential V.P. and executive growth at the company, so we used FTC for a while there. After years of boycotting Signature, they finally made nice and I hear they aren't using FTC anymore. If they can do it anyone can, believe me.

The "FBO" breaks my airplane, I'm responsible...I don't care how cheap the fuel is--Not gonna do it. That's rollin' the dice. I wonder if they'd sign a reciprocal agreement that if I started up and blew one of their 152s into another one, that they'd pick up the repair bill? I doubt it. If FTC wants to compete with the big boys, they need to remember that its a big boy's game. They can't expect flight departments to take on their risk just so they can make money. I sure don't want to take that risk, imagine the boss asking "who told you it was ok to sign that agreement?" My sh** would be real weak.

 

[RVR5000]

You need to take this to the Airport Manager. FTC is some sort of flakey operation going on in the back there and if indeed you have problems with this company, I can guarantee you the airport will want to know about it.

 

[NJAowner]

There is certainly such a thing as an "oral contract." It's just that they do not supersede written contracts.

Ed -- not true to make a statement like that. Many, many times oral contracts can and do supercede written agreements.

Regarding non-binding agreements, I know nothing of this place nor have I been there. However, many sets of laws are interpreted differently for "members". It may be zoning or other laws which make the difference. In fact, in many localities, the particular type of bar which is the favorite of many pilots on this board require someone to be a "member" to enter. "Membership" is a $5 or $10 fee plus signing a clipboard. But "membership" changes the rules.

Many times the proper term for a "non-bonding agreement" is that it is binding, bt cancelable at will by either party without any penalty or negative consequence.

Fly safe.

 

[ManChild]

5. Rent. Tenant agrees to pay to the Landlord a per movement rent specified above, plus Tenant credit card fee, payable by credit card on arrival of each aircraft. Any landing fees imposed by the Airport shall be paid directly to DM per instructions on their invoice. Overnight parking on the Ramp or in a Hangar (if available) are not included in the Rent and will be charged at the rates in effect at the time.


So to stay overnight its

Rent + Credit Card Fee + Ramp Fee?

That's over $604? (for a heavy)



And if it is non-binding why bother putting in that they are not "responsible of liable for any damage" "arising from any cause whatsoever"

 

[caseyd]

......

Regarding non-binding agreements.......In fact, in many localities, the particular type of bar which is the favorite of many pilots on this board require someone to be a "member" to enter. "Membership" is a $5 or $10 fee plus signing a clipboard. But "membership" changes the rules.........


NJAowner,

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's my story........

caseyd

 

[Capt1124]

Well, just because it's a big FBO doesn't mean they won't try something funny. Our plane got dinged on the ramp at Jet Aviation BED by a limo that was out there for another aircraft. At first they were trying to tell us it was our problem, but the manager of our company is a lawyer and set them straight quickly.

Of course, if we had signed something, it would have been completely different.