FTC Private Air Terminal Morristown...BEWARE

[HMR]

LRvsH25B- Your points are well taken. For us, signing the non-binding agreement has been worthwhile.

Caveat Emptor.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I CAN argue that Signature does not have great facilities.

Not to pick a fight here, but lets take a look at KDET (worst FBO in the USA ?????), KDTW, KSEA, old KBOS trailer, KCLT (before Wilson Air), KBED, KTEB, KSTL, KDSM, KIND, KJAX.

At one time or another many of these sites and more were operating out of trailers SEA, BOS, JAX etc..) or out of their competitors old facilities. Arguably DET is the worst FBO in the country (according to the PRASE Survey score in the 4 range).

I don't think I have been to one of the facilities that you mentioned above in the past 5 years. Just goes to show you that not only was my statement wrong...but their pricing has caused me to avoid them so much that my logical was flawed.

Service can be hit or miss (some places great, some places terrible), but the one thing you could always count on at Signature was high fuel prices and outrageous fees. Hell, Signature invented the ramp fee, which started to spread like a cancer throughout the industry (of course guys who tanker all their fuel and don't buy courtesy fuel don't help the situation).

Signature's business practice was one of going into an airport where they were the only game in town, and making sure it stayed that way. It's funny when you read the comments on AirNav. Typically it is from GA piston drivers who bought 10 gallons to waive the $35.00 ramp fee, and they are all wet in the pants happy about a red carpet and popcorn.

When you are buying 1000 gallons at an extra $2.00 a pop, you could get day rooms at the Four Seasons for a day; a limo to drive you there, and still have money left over if you use contract fuel from one of Signature's competitors. I for one dislike their anti-competitive behavior and avoid them to the best of my ability.

But after reading this thread I would probably suck it up at KMMU.

“The bitter taste of poor quality and service lingers long after the sweet taste of a cheap price is forgotten.” ?????

Not to call you out on the courtesy fuel issue...but I don't believe in that term. It's not a courtesy to purchase fuel, if the price is not competetive with other locations or our fuel price at home plus the cost of tankering I'm not buying it. It's not unlike fueling at the cheapest gas station in town, while driving by the others that are a quarter more. We frequently go into a Land Mark FBO, and work directly with the manager on fuel price. We want to give him our business if possible...if not we pay the ramp fee. That's the penalty for not purchasing gas. Sometimes he is able to work a deal, other times not. He was honest in saying that he would rather take calls from flight crews all day long negotiating a price and inturn purchase more fuel in bulk and work a better deal in the end, then sit on a smaller load of fuel at a higher price. It's more profitable for him to sell the fuel.

The ability to tanker fuel should not be held against us. There are numerous other jet aircraft that don't have that capability...we have all flown them. We can't tanker all of our fuel all of the time either. It is an advantage, but it doesn't come free. I'm sure that it wasn't the reason the owner bought the aircraft, but it comes with the price of the investment.

 

[cheyflyer]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

 

[SansPlane]

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

[FONT=&quot]Based on the information gleaned from the responses in this thread; cheaper fuel and perhaps crappy service.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

 

[SansPlane]

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

[FONT=&quot]Let me get this right: You have read though the entire thread and checked the information on the website of the company in question and the legal eagle that you are guarantee that I would be the “Stupid Litigant of the Month”? And have been entrusted to fly a BA32 BE90 BE200 DC9 CL30 & LR45.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

 

[SansPlane]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

[FONT=&quot]Ed – You seem like a nice and well informed guy. I guess we have different experiences in terms of legal experience/representation. I only spoke to the matter in this thread which is signing a document that that the company itself states in non-binding. I don’t think this is hard IFR or requires one to be knowledgeable of the four corners doctrine which I have never heard of but then again, I did not go to law school. I was involved with a pretty large case where “Oral Agreements” were at issue. This was not a difficult case for the law firm representing us since there were third parties operating under the parameters of these oral agreements. Not to much different than the issue at hand; signing a non-binding agreement for less expensive fuel.


[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

There is certainly such a thing as an "oral contract." It's just that they do not supersede written contracts.

I'll leave it for the Folks to decide.

 

[Diesel]

Its only non-binding till something happens to your plane. Then its binding.