FTC Private Air Terminal Morristown...BEWARE

[HMR]

LRvsH25B- Your points are well taken. For us, signing the non-binding agreement has been worthwhile.

Caveat Emptor.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I CAN argue that Signature does not have great facilities.

Not to pick a fight here, but lets take a look at KDET (worst FBO in the USA ?????), KDTW, KSEA, old KBOS trailer, KCLT (before Wilson Air), KBED, KTEB, KSTL, KDSM, KIND, KJAX.

At one time or another many of these sites and more were operating out of trailers SEA, BOS, JAX etc..) or out of their competitors old facilities. Arguably DET is the worst FBO in the country (according to the PRASE Survey score in the 4 range).

I don't think I have been to one of the facilities that you mentioned above in the past 5 years. Just goes to show you that not only was my statement wrong...but their pricing has caused me to avoid them so much that my logical was flawed.

Service can be hit or miss (some places great, some places terrible), but the one thing you could always count on at Signature was high fuel prices and outrageous fees. Hell, Signature invented the ramp fee, which started to spread like a cancer throughout the industry (of course guys who tanker all their fuel and don't buy courtesy fuel don't help the situation).

Signature's business practice was one of going into an airport where they were the only game in town, and making sure it stayed that way. It's funny when you read the comments on AirNav. Typically it is from GA piston drivers who bought 10 gallons to waive the $35.00 ramp fee, and they are all wet in the pants happy about a red carpet and popcorn.

When you are buying 1000 gallons at an extra $2.00 a pop, you could get day rooms at the Four Seasons for a day; a limo to drive you there, and still have money left over if you use contract fuel from one of Signature's competitors. I for one dislike their anti-competitive behavior and avoid them to the best of my ability.

But after reading this thread I would probably suck it up at KMMU.

“The bitter taste of poor quality and service lingers long after the sweet taste of a cheap price is forgotten.” ?????

Not to call you out on the courtesy fuel issue...but I don't believe in that term. It's not a courtesy to purchase fuel, if the price is not competetive with other locations or our fuel price at home plus the cost of tankering I'm not buying it. It's not unlike fueling at the cheapest gas station in town, while driving by the others that are a quarter more. We frequently go into a Land Mark FBO, and work directly with the manager on fuel price. We want to give him our business if possible...if not we pay the ramp fee. That's the penalty for not purchasing gas. Sometimes he is able to work a deal, other times not. He was honest in saying that he would rather take calls from flight crews all day long negotiating a price and inturn purchase more fuel in bulk and work a better deal in the end, then sit on a smaller load of fuel at a higher price. It's more profitable for him to sell the fuel.

The ability to tanker fuel should not be held against us. There are numerous other jet aircraft that don't have that capability...we have all flown them. We can't tanker all of our fuel all of the time either. It is an advantage, but it doesn't come free. I'm sure that it wasn't the reason the owner bought the aircraft, but it comes with the price of the investment.

 

[cheyflyer]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

 

[SansPlane]

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

[FONT=&quot]Based on the information gleaned from the responses in this thread; cheaper fuel and perhaps crappy service.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

 

[SansPlane]

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

[FONT=&quot]Let me get this right: You have read though the entire thread and checked the information on the website of the company in question and the legal eagle that you are guarantee that I would be the “Stupid Litigant of the Month”? And have been entrusted to fly a BA32 BE90 BE200 DC9 CL30 & LR45.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

 

[SansPlane]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

[FONT=&quot]Ed – You seem like a nice and well informed guy. I guess we have different experiences in terms of legal experience/representation. I only spoke to the matter in this thread which is signing a document that that the company itself states in non-binding. I don’t think this is hard IFR or requires one to be knowledgeable of the four corners doctrine which I have never heard of but then again, I did not go to law school. I was involved with a pretty large case where “Oral Agreements” were at issue. This was not a difficult case for the law firm representing us since there were third parties operating under the parameters of these oral agreements. Not to much different than the issue at hand; signing a non-binding agreement for less expensive fuel.


[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

There is certainly such a thing as an "oral contract." It's just that they do not supersede written contracts.

I'll leave it for the Folks to decide.

 

[Diesel]

Its only non-binding till something happens to your plane. Then its binding.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I learned about hold harmless agreements from a previous Chief Pilot. I had no knowledge that anything like this existed...my response to any of these agreements is that they must be reviewed by our legal department before I am able to sign anything. Which is true, and also hard argue against.

To be honest I have no idea what FTC's agreement includes...but I can tell you that I didn't sign it and that really added heat to our dissagreement. Which leads me to believe that had I signed it I would have been on the hook for any number of additional items they felt justified in adding.

The moral of the story is this...take my experience and way it against the cost of doing business with FTC. I think you will see that the potential cost savings isn't worth the experience...especially if Signature is willing to negotiate pricing. The attitudes and behavior that I and our company officials experienced there should be punished...through loss of business and it is my goal to help that happen.

 

[jet2work]

Not to call you out on the courtesy fuel issue...but I don't believe in that term. It's not a courtesy to purchase fuel, if the price is not competetive with other locations or our fuel price at home plus the cost of tankering I'm not buying it. It's not unlike fueling at the cheapest gas station in town, while driving by the others that are a quarter more.

Well I liken it more to a situation where you stop at the gas station where gas is a quarter more and use their restroom and refill your coffee mug for free, clean your windshield, put air in your tires, and then drive across town and buy gas from someone else.

I think that I have made it perfectly clear that I am not a fan of Signature, but I was talking about buying fuel from smaller independent FBO's or chains that don't try screwing their customers as a matter of course. As the name implies it is simply a courtesy to buy fuel from them. Just like when you go out for dinner and tip your waiter. There is no law requiring it. The prices are printed clearly on the menu. The owner could pay the person a higher wage and include it in the price. I would just be careful about going to a restaurant and letting your waiter know before the meal that you don't believe in tipping (after all it is just a courtesy).

If I am gonna kick back in your lazy boy and watch your TV, drink your coffee, hit on your counter girls etc... I will toss you a few bones so that you will be here next time I stop by. There probably isn't an FBO in the country that can compete with the price that a flight department with it's own fuel farm pays for Jet A.

If you invite me over to your house for a "FREE" Thanksgiving dinner, I'll bring your wife some flowers and you a bottle of Scotch. That's just how I am.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I understand what your saying jet2work, but I still don't agree.

We and I'm sure you do as well negiate fuel price prior to departure. More often than not we are able to reach a price that is the same, if not better than our tankered fuel price from home. While our home airport fuel price is great, moving it around the country does cost...about 6% an hour based on some pretty detailed calculations...it doesn't take but a 2 hour flight to level the fuel price playing field. Combine that with CAA fuel pricing (which any FBO can apply to be a member of) and there is no reason to be purchasing courtesy fuel. Not knowing what volume of fuel being purchased is considered a "courtesy" it's difficult to do the math, but I would assume that what ever minimal amount of fuel your purchasing offers much less of a profit margin than the bulk fuel order I'm striving for with a discounted per gallon price. If the FBO is unwilling to make the math work, which I'm happy to share with them, then that's their problem and I'll buy gas from somewhere else. It's funny actually, when I started really working on fuel pricing, I was shocked to findout how much the FBO's were willing to negiate. Where we use to tanker well north of 50% of the time, now with a few phone calls, on a muli-leg trip we plan our FBO's and fuel purchasing in more detail and save even more money while, tankering less and purchasing more on the road.

I do acknowledge the use of coffee, dust buster, tv and recliner, but that's the business, and prior to the run up in fuel price and the advent of the ramp charge fuel price wasn't nearly the player it is today. Business, like anything in life evolves, with that evolution comes change, much of which we don't like, such as in the form or fees. Will buying courtesy fuel stop those fees from spreading, I doubt it...but negiating a more favorable price will move the fuel out of his truck and enable the FBO to purchase their next load of fuel at a more reduced rate, empowering his negiating position. I know this is true based on conversations with an FBO manager we visit regularly.

We would not be doing our owners and operators justice if we did not operate in the most cost effective mannor possible. I view courtesy fuel as an un-needed extra expense, infact wasting money when we should be doing everything possible to save the company money where and when we have the opportunity.

It's a difference of opinion, I understand. I don't view myself as dis-courteous by any means. I would gladly repay the bottle of scotch, by offering you a glass, a comfortable chair and hopefully a good meal to go along with it. That's just how I am as well...

 

[chingaso]

I think I remember FTC. isn't that the flight school that started selling jet fuel? The one where you have to have a key issued to you to get in and out of the facility, with the convoluted taxi route? Fuel prices notwithstanding, it still felt like we were taking our million-dollar clients in and out of a flight school. With little service.

The first time I experienced a document such as that was at Avitat HPN. Ice storm approaching, they pretty much got you by the cajones. "Yes, we'll hangar your airplane, but you must first sign an agreement that makes you responsible if we dent your airplane." I couldn't believe they were serious. I just tell them that I do not have the authority to sign such a document, that they will have to play the fax-game with our legal department. I would think that a flight department would need to cover that base when initially setting up a relationship with the respective FBOs, an consequently, the FBO in good faith should explain these little "extra" strings before the jet shows up, not after. Sounds shady.

I used to fly for a fractional that was zealously trying to cut costs in order to justify the exponential V.P. and executive growth at the company, so we used FTC for a while there. After years of boycotting Signature, they finally made nice and I hear they aren't using FTC anymore. If they can do it anyone can, believe me.

The "FBO" breaks my airplane, I'm responsible...I don't care how cheap the fuel is--Not gonna do it. That's rollin' the dice. I wonder if they'd sign a reciprocal agreement that if I started up and blew one of their 152s into another one, that they'd pick up the repair bill? I doubt it. If FTC wants to compete with the big boys, they need to remember that its a big boy's game. They can't expect flight departments to take on their risk just so they can make money. I sure don't want to take that risk, imagine the boss asking "who told you it was ok to sign that agreement?" My sh** would be real weak.

 

[RVR5000]

You need to take this to the Airport Manager. FTC is some sort of flakey operation going on in the back there and if indeed you have problems with this company, I can guarantee you the airport will want to know about it.