FTC Private Air Terminal Morristown...BEWARE

[BoilerUP]

One thing that works against FTC now...

I spoke to a Signature FBO Manager in Florida (won't say where) and she said HQ finally gave them some lattitude to negotiate fuel prices individually vs. a blanket edict from on high.

I'm gonna guess ISM?

At least that's who I got a call from one day saying they'd match anybody's prices to gain our business...

 

[LegacyDriver]

For a while now Signature has been very competitive on fuel.

At KMMU or in general?

 

[TimsKeeper]

signature fuel pricing

In general they are starting to be quite competitive to get your fuel business. Have you seen the ramp in KHPN lately? it's like a ghost town...they had to start coming down.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I actually never thought that I would see the day that Signature allowed a negiation on fuel price. I'm guessing that it's still more than our tankered fuel price...but it's a start. And if they are willing to bring down their fees to a level close to FTC that would be real fuel to my fire. You can't argue that Signatures typically do have great facilities, but the price of gas is much more controlling over a 46 inch plasma in a waiting area. An FBO manager at another major FBO chain told me recently that he is interested in volume...that drives his price...so why not negiate. It's a lot of work for the us, but it's our job and it always takes several phone calls, but in the end, this particular FBO sells gas to us at a reduced rate, and business continues! Simple logic, and a sound plan in my opinion.

 

[icefr8dawg]

I actually never thought that I would see the day that Signature allowed a negiation on fuel price. I'm guessing that it's still more than our tankered fuel price...but it's a start. And if they are willing to bring down their fees to a level close to FTC that would be real fuel to my fire. You can't argue that Signatures typically do have great facilities, but the price of gas is much more controlling over a 46 inch plasma in a waiting area. An FBO manager at another major FBO chain told me recently that he is interested in volume...that drives his price...so why not negiate. It's a lot of work for the us, but it's our job and it always takes several phone calls, but in the end, this particular FBO sells gas to us at a reduced rate, and business continues! Simple logic, and a sound plan in my opinion.

Same logic for us. Especially when the owner dosn't care what the FBO looks like. If it's so bad that I can't be in it I spend the $36 an hour on the APU and watch movies in the plane...

 

[LRvsH25B]

We were just at FTC this morning and have used them many times. I've never experienced nor heard of anyone having the problems you describe. It's definitely a small, mom & pop type operation but that's one of the reasons we choose to go there. Rental cars/limos are always waiting within feet of our aircraft and fuel and catering are delivered as quickly as any FBO I've ever been to. Certainly faster service than anywhere at TEB. Saving >$1.00 per gallon vs. Signature is also a big incentive.

Your interaction with Alex sounds like a nightmare. This is so far from anything I've experienced that I wonder if there's not more to the story? Regardless, there's no excuse for an employee acting that way.

As for the "legal letter"- are you referring to the "membership agreement" that everyone using FTC has to sign? Since FTC is a "Private FBO" you have to be a "Member" to use it. Membership is free of charge, available to anyone and renewable month-to-month (only have to fill out the paperwork once). My understanding is that the whole membership deal is to get around a city ordinance(?). Regardless, it was a pretty easy decision for me to become a member in order to save $2,000+ per top-off.

Is it really worth it? Signing something like that saves you 2K per top-off, but when they ding your airplane and then tell you you're on your own to get it fixed (and this place souds like that is exactly what they would do), you've saved nothing, probably including your job. I've always look at it and I instruct those I work with the only thing they are allowed to sign is a confirmation of services, as long as it is not tied into a hold harmless. As pilots, we are not the aircraft owners, thought we are the owner's represenative. Because we are tasked with its operation, most of what we sign is potentially binding, even if someone tells you it's not in an effort to get you to sign it. I believe, as well as most pilots worth their salt, that a large part of our job is ensuring the best interests of the aircraft's owners are well represented by its crew. Signing an argeement disolving the handling party of any liability is not looking out for the owner, not to mention your job. The discounts on fuel are great, until something gets damaged. Just my thoughts. HMR I pop in and out of these forums 2 or 3 times a year, and I've always enjoyed reading your posts. Cheers..............

 

[LegacyDriver]

Is it really worth it? Signing something like that saves you 2K per top-off, but when they ding your airplane and then tell you you're on your own to get it fixed (and this place souds like that is exactly what they would do), you've saved nothing...

My boss seemed to think it was worth it. I think at one point we were saving more than $2 a gallon.

When you upload 2-3000 gallons at a whack twice a week for 52 weeks out of the year that's quite significant.

Signature probably wouldn't fix your airplane either. They always try to sneak that "we are not liable" paperwork by you just like every other FBO.

 

[SansPlane]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

[FONT=&quot]Let me get this straight. Everything else besides fuel aside. And IF fuel expense is an issue in your operation. And YOU won’t sign an agreement with a company that will save you/owner/operation money. Because you have concerns about signing a document that the company states is non-binding? And you are entrusted to fly an expensive piece of equipment along with the owner/CEO, their family etc. but are worried about signing a non-binding agreement?[/FONT]

 

[jet2work]

Au Contraire

You can't argue that Signatures typically do have great facilities

I CAN argue that Signature does not have great facilities.

Not to pick a fight here, but lets take a look at KDET (worst FBO in the USA ?????), KDTW, KSEA, old KBOS trailer, KCLT (before Wilson Air), KBED, KTEB, KSTL, KDSM, KIND, KJAX.

At one time or another many of these sites and more were operating out of trailers SEA, BOS, JAX etc..) or out of their competitors old facilities. Arguably DET is the worst FBO in the country (according to the PRASE Survey score in the 4 range).

Service can be hit or miss (some places great, some places terrible), but the one thing you could always count on at Signature was high fuel prices and outrageous fees. Hell, Signature invented the ramp fee, which started to spread like a cancer throughout the industry (of course guys who tanker all their fuel and don't buy courtesy fuel don't help the situation).

Signature's business practice was one of going into an airport where they were the only game in town, and making sure it stayed that way. It's funny when you read the comments on AirNav. Typically it is from GA piston drivers who bought 10 gallons to waive the $35.00 ramp fee, and they are all wet in the pants happy about a red carpet and popcorn.

When you are buying 1000 gallons at an extra $2.00 a pop, you could get day rooms at the Four Seasons for a day; a limo to drive you there, and still have money left over if you use contract fuel from one of Signature's competitors. I for one dislike their anti-competitive behavior and avoid them to the best of my ability.

But after reading this thread I would probably suck it up at KMMU.

“The bitter taste of poor quality and service lingers long after the sweet taste of a cheap price is forgotten.” ?????

 

[2EASYPilot]

I actually never thought that I would see the day that Signature allowed a negiation on fuel price. I'm guessing that it's still more than our tankered fuel price...but it's a start. And if they are willing to bring down their fees to a level close to FTC that would be real fuel to my fire. You can't argue that Signatures typically do have great facilities, but the price of gas is much more controlling over a 46 inch plasma in a waiting area. An FBO manager at another major FBO chain told me recently that he is interested in volume...that drives his price...so why not negiate. It's a lot of work for the us, but it's our job and it always takes several phone calls, but in the end, this particular FBO sells gas to us at a reduced rate, and business continues! Simple logic, and a sound plan in my opinion.

The problem I now have with the various Signatures is I get many calls from Signatures wanting us to return but the calls are only from locations where there is competition. No calls from MSP, BOS, ORD, etc. This "new" Signature does not appear to be chain wide. Maybe I have missed those other calls.

 

[HMR]

LRvsH25B- Your points are well taken. For us, signing the non-binding agreement has been worthwhile.

Caveat Emptor.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I CAN argue that Signature does not have great facilities.

Not to pick a fight here, but lets take a look at KDET (worst FBO in the USA ?????), KDTW, KSEA, old KBOS trailer, KCLT (before Wilson Air), KBED, KTEB, KSTL, KDSM, KIND, KJAX.

At one time or another many of these sites and more were operating out of trailers SEA, BOS, JAX etc..) or out of their competitors old facilities. Arguably DET is the worst FBO in the country (according to the PRASE Survey score in the 4 range).

I don't think I have been to one of the facilities that you mentioned above in the past 5 years. Just goes to show you that not only was my statement wrong...but their pricing has caused me to avoid them so much that my logical was flawed.

Service can be hit or miss (some places great, some places terrible), but the one thing you could always count on at Signature was high fuel prices and outrageous fees. Hell, Signature invented the ramp fee, which started to spread like a cancer throughout the industry (of course guys who tanker all their fuel and don't buy courtesy fuel don't help the situation).

Signature's business practice was one of going into an airport where they were the only game in town, and making sure it stayed that way. It's funny when you read the comments on AirNav. Typically it is from GA piston drivers who bought 10 gallons to waive the $35.00 ramp fee, and they are all wet in the pants happy about a red carpet and popcorn.

When you are buying 1000 gallons at an extra $2.00 a pop, you could get day rooms at the Four Seasons for a day; a limo to drive you there, and still have money left over if you use contract fuel from one of Signature's competitors. I for one dislike their anti-competitive behavior and avoid them to the best of my ability.

But after reading this thread I would probably suck it up at KMMU.

“The bitter taste of poor quality and service lingers long after the sweet taste of a cheap price is forgotten.” ?????

Not to call you out on the courtesy fuel issue...but I don't believe in that term. It's not a courtesy to purchase fuel, if the price is not competetive with other locations or our fuel price at home plus the cost of tankering I'm not buying it. It's not unlike fueling at the cheapest gas station in town, while driving by the others that are a quarter more. We frequently go into a Land Mark FBO, and work directly with the manager on fuel price. We want to give him our business if possible...if not we pay the ramp fee. That's the penalty for not purchasing gas. Sometimes he is able to work a deal, other times not. He was honest in saying that he would rather take calls from flight crews all day long negotiating a price and inturn purchase more fuel in bulk and work a better deal in the end, then sit on a smaller load of fuel at a higher price. It's more profitable for him to sell the fuel.

The ability to tanker fuel should not be held against us. There are numerous other jet aircraft that don't have that capability...we have all flown them. We can't tanker all of our fuel all of the time either. It is an advantage, but it doesn't come free. I'm sure that it wasn't the reason the owner bought the aircraft, but it comes with the price of the investment.

 

[cheyflyer]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

 

[SansPlane]

Then whats the point in having to sign it?

[FONT=&quot]Based on the information gleaned from the responses in this thread; cheaper fuel and perhaps crappy service.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

[FONT=&quot]The following is on their website: [/FONT]Simply fill out a membership agreement that is pilot-executable and non-binding.

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

 

[SansPlane]

Let me get this right: You are willing to go into court and plead that the company who rashed your airplane verbally told you that their written agreement didn't mean anything? I guarantee you that you'll be the "Stupid Litigant of the Month" in the next issue of Lying Lawyers magazine.

[FONT=&quot]Let me get this right: You have read though the entire thread and checked the information on the website of the company in question and the legal eagle that you are guarantee that I would be the “Stupid Litigant of the Month”? And have been entrusted to fly a BA32 BE90 BE200 DC9 CL30 & LR45.[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

 

[SansPlane]

Sir, with all due respect, I'm trying to give advice to fellow pilots regarding documents that they sign. You are defending an ignorant post with even more ignorance.

Generally, you are held to the terms of an agreement that you sign, regardless of anything outside that agreement (notably "verbals", but also things like the web site you cite). In law. this is called the Four Corners Doctrine. There are "outs" to this, such as fraud, illegality, ambiguity, or duress, but it generally holds true that a court will judge your case by the four corners of the document you signed.

And yeah, you could get a "lucky jury" or something, but you are a big underdog walking in with a signed document against you.

[FONT=&quot]Ed – You seem like a nice and well informed guy. I guess we have different experiences in terms of legal experience/representation. I only spoke to the matter in this thread which is signing a document that that the company itself states in non-binding. I don’t think this is hard IFR or requires one to be knowledgeable of the four corners doctrine which I have never heard of but then again, I did not go to law school. I was involved with a pretty large case where “Oral Agreements” were at issue. This was not a difficult case for the law firm representing us since there were third parties operating under the parameters of these oral agreements. Not to much different than the issue at hand; signing a non-binding agreement for less expensive fuel.


[/FONT]

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

There is certainly such a thing as an "oral contract." It's just that they do not supersede written contracts.

I'll leave it for the Folks to decide.

 

[Diesel]

Its only non-binding till something happens to your plane. Then its binding.