Frontier pilots vote to SAVE the airline!!

[check6]

I have to agree with Bookingsareup that picking up open time while your brothers are furloughed is not a big deal. Pilots just don't get it. Gup if you are so worried about your BROTHERS then lets change the age limit back to 60 so your BROTHERS can have a chance to pay their bills. Those over 60 guys are taking jobs from there BROTHERS...yada yada yada....GUP if you haven't learned by now in avaiton, there is no brotherhood, never was. Funny how that is... Bottom line, we already have to many wannabe pilots willing to work for nothing. At least open time pays what we are worth. Better then hiring or having so many pilots that we all get min pay so we can have a ton of wannabe pilots on board. We need pilots who have worked hard to get that job so they realize what they deserve and fight for it. Look at Fedex or UPS pilots. As for SWA your time is coming where you too will be taking paycuts once your hedges match the other airlines, it is inevitable in avation since there is no brotherhood, never was, and we have too many sell you soul for that job wannabe pilots who we allow to have a job in the first place that haven't earned it yet. If pilots were not willing to work for squat, pilots wouldn't want to work extra....So pick up that open time because that is what pilots are worth. It is fine. The furloughed guys or potential newbies will just have to wait for that 60, I mean 65 year old to retire so he can get his shot. We already have to many wannabe pilots who will work for nothing and sell themself for very little just to have a job and then vote for a paycut to keep it. Screw that. Make them earn that job so they know what they are worth. Gup you got no argument until age 60 is put back in place about there being any BROTHERHOOD! Your age old sayings haven't worked since avaiton was deregulated dude. Wake up. It is becasue pilots work for cheap wages becasue they haven't had to earn it. My 2 cents...

It seems to me that the age 65 law was passed a few months before the airlines started to furlough. I don't think anyone could have predicted airlines were going to be furloughing in the first quarter of say. . . 2009.

I don't believe anyone over the age of 65 is taking jobs from our brothers and sisters. It was their decision and their right to stay. . .simple as that.

Heck, it makes that transition between age 60 and 62 when ya can't even get social security.

 

[HalinTexas]

That's OK, King Obama will be coronated in 10 days, and with his minions in Congress this profession will be saved.

Let Mgmt. impose an 1113(c), and strike 30 days after emergence from BK unless all concessions are returned. The judge has no jurisdiction at that point and DOL will take forever to judge against the pilot group. His Majesty surely won't hold it
against you.

ATA and other pilot groups took concessions to save the company. Look where it got them. Keep your money! Furlough if you must, but keep your money.

 

[StaySeated]

Strike - one organized labor group attempted to strike after an 1113C ruling and they were slapped by an injunction by the district court that was upheld by the circuit court. It is not accurate to state that the judge has no jurisdiction.

Open Time - I hate to rain on everyone's open time circle jerk, but if you actually take a look at our open time over the past several months you will find that we do not have enough open time to build even ONE line. There is commonly several hundred hours of flying in the open time pot, however most of that flying is stacked on a few days (beginning of the month due to transition conflicts) or holidays were the drop limits are maxed during MOT drop and DOT drop. If there was a way that FAPA could bring back one pilot with the flying that is in open time, it would have already been accomplished.

 

[Bookingsareup]

I am open to changing my opinion on this matter if anyone can address the facts of the issues I have put forth and put aside the emotion. Irrational attacks and accusations suggesting I am a scab while you enjoy your aninimity, aa73, are like flipping someone off while you are speeding awayin your car- cowardice.
. The bottom line for me is this: for February we have 17564 total hours of flight time with 231 hard lines approximentally 11 relief lines and 40 listed available reserve lines. So the average flight time spread throughout all lines is around 64 hours ( I know this is not how it is calculated and that I have not included vacation, sick, recrew, etc.) They will also be awarding a limited number of leaves of absence for February. So you could say that they are already slightly overstaffed- which if fine by me.

I know some people on this board like to attack those with whom they disagree. But all you have to do is look at the numbers. I stand by my previous statement” most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!. We as a pilot group are doing what we can to ensure a timely return of all our displaced pilots who wish to return by:

1. endorsing month-to –month LOA’s which keeps more of us employed.
2. Enforcing a minimum time be kept in opentime when constructing monthly lines.
3. Keeping in tact our work rules which allow splitting trips, trip drop, vacation policy etc. Many of these rules support the need for more pilots when compared to some other airlines. Management would have loved to dismantle some of our industry leading work rules but thanks to our negotiating team who successfully represented the pilot group as a whole they remained untouched.

With that said we do have plenty of legitimate issues with management which have, in my opinion put some of our pilots out of work they include:

1. “Shrinking to profitability” by selling aircraft
2. Losing millions to bad fuel hedges thus contributing to example#1
3. Creating a second certificate Lynx, which cost the company over $30 mil. when we could have saved over half that by simply adding the Q-400 to Frontier’s certificate- again, contributing to example#1
4. Fine, we have Lynx and that’s the way it is. But at least offer our furloughed pilots jobs!

I also want to respectfully disagree that pilots are picking up 10 too 20 hours of opentime as a result of our pay cuts. There simply isn’t that much open time I, again maintain an average of 77 hours each month. However, some months I am more schedule minded and other months I am more money minded. I submit to you that this is the case with most pilots thus resulting in a year-over-year average which ultimately is used to determine staffing levels. Correct my history if I am wrong but I believe APA was sued successfully to the tune of $40 mil in the 90’s by AA, and certain Pilots were sued recently by UAL for initiating job action.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I know some people on this board like to attack those with whom they disagree. But all you have to do is look at the numbers. I stand by my previous statement” most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!.

This part of your post invalidates all else...

"everyone else is doing it, so it must be ok..."

Don't try and justify your actions by (probably assuming) that the ones calling you out are just as gulity... even if they were.. that still doesn't make it right for you. Only you control you.

The fact is unity is all you got... no, you really can't put a price on it... certainly it isn't worth the chump change of the open time you picked up.... but in the end the unity is priceless.....

Management watch the open time pick up, certainly under the conditions you are in....

In the end, when those furloughed pilots come back you are going to have to work with them... and you may need them in future to help with another cause... some people never forget...

Selling out your fellow pilots for a few dollars is disgusting and unethical....

 

[njcapt]

I am open to changing my opinion on this matter if anyone can address the facts of the issues I have put forth and put aside the emotion. Irrational attacks and accusations suggesting I am a scab while you enjoy your aninimity, aa73, are like flipping someone off while you are speeding awayin your car- cowardice.
. The bottom line for me is this: for February we have 17564 total hours of flight time with 231 hard lines approximentally 11 relief lines and 40 listed available reserve lines. So the average flight time spread throughout all lines is around 64 hours ( I know this is not how it is calculated and that I have not included vacation, sick, recrew, etc.) They will also be awarding a limited number of leaves of absence for February. So you could say that they are already slightly overstaffed- which if fine by me.

You sound like the old lady at the supermarket rationalizing the act of eating grapes out of the bin. "I've been doing this for fifty years and the store hasn't gone out of business". Sorry, you old bag, it's still stealing.

Blah, blah, blah, rationalization, obfuscation, etc.

Jeez, you spent a lot of effort justifying whoring 'just to get up to 77 hours'. Management isn't FAIR with us, things aren't perfect, I'm only picking up a little bit of open time.

Correct my history if I am wrong but I believe APA was sued successfully to the tune of $40 mil in the 90’s by AA, and certain Pilots were sued recently by UAL for initiating job action.

Yeah, both for organized job actions. I don't think FAPA is stupid enough to put out an order specifically prohibiting the picking up of open time. During both of my airline furloughs I got to hear about selfish jerk-offs volunteering for extra flying, even Captains flying right seat for straight time. It made me sick to hear while I was painting houses and scratching for flying work.

It's an issue of integrity and morals, chief. I'm not sure why I'm wasting the time trying to shame you into doing the right thing. You'll continue to rationalize the act because you deserve it. Because you're sure it doesn't really hurt your furloughed brothers. The same rationalization scabs still use to justify their actions in 1983, 1985, 1989. There's no law prohibiting what you and the other selfish aholes are doing, but believe me when I say that you are spitting in the faces of the F9 furloughees.

 

[climb2slow]

Open Time - I hate to rain on everyone's open time circle jerk, but if you actually take a look at our open time over the past several months you will find that we do not have enough open time to build even ONE line. There is commonly several hundred hours of flying in the open time pot, however most of that flying is stacked on a few days (beginning of the month due to transition conflicts) or holidays were the drop limits are maxed during MOT drop and DOT drop. If there was a way that FAPA could bring back one pilot with the flying that is in open time, it would have already been accomplished.

There isn't opentime left because it all gets sucked up by the hungry w************************* who build their lines up in monthly opentime before it opens. It's the same thing whether you pick it up then or later. If everyone only flew their awarded line value, there would be plenty of opentime, or more lines.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

At least they got snapbacks.

















Or did I read that wrong?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Correct on snapbacks. Work rules UNTOUCHED. This is unprecedented. Rumor has it that the TA was less than HALF of what the Company was asking in negotiations, but they were approaching a deadline where they had to have a deal or the DIP lenders were going to call their loan. Almost guaranteed they would have gotten more in 1113...

Under the TA, our payscale puts us in the MIDDLE of what everybody else is making...

None of us wanted a paycut, but the only choice to make was how are we were going to take it...

I don't think the (then) VP of Flight ops had anything to do with our hedging decisions.

 

[328dude]

The pilots of Southwest voted whether to spend dues money to support the Age 65 push. I voted NO. Didn't care for the arbitrary age change. The vote passed, ALPA got onboard and we now retire at 65. Do I like it? Nope. BUT I ACCEPT IT. IMO, that's an example of unity.

Of course you would, you already got your upgrade.