Frontier pilots vote to SAVE the airline!!

[njcapt]

I am open to changing my opinion on this matter if anyone can address the facts of the issues I have put forth and put aside the emotion. Irrational attacks and accusations suggesting I am a scab while you enjoy your aninimity, aa73, are like flipping someone off while you are speeding awayin your car- cowardice.
. The bottom line for me is this: for February we have 17564 total hours of flight time with 231 hard lines approximentally 11 relief lines and 40 listed available reserve lines. So the average flight time spread throughout all lines is around 64 hours ( I know this is not how it is calculated and that I have not included vacation, sick, recrew, etc.) They will also be awarding a limited number of leaves of absence for February. So you could say that they are already slightly overstaffed- which if fine by me.

You sound like the old lady at the supermarket rationalizing the act of eating grapes out of the bin. "I've been doing this for fifty years and the store hasn't gone out of business". Sorry, you old bag, it's still stealing.

Blah, blah, blah, rationalization, obfuscation, etc.

Jeez, you spent a lot of effort justifying whoring 'just to get up to 77 hours'. Management isn't FAIR with us, things aren't perfect, I'm only picking up a little bit of open time.

Correct my history if I am wrong but I believe APA was sued successfully to the tune of $40 mil in the 90’s by AA, and certain Pilots were sued recently by UAL for initiating job action.

Yeah, both for organized job actions. I don't think FAPA is stupid enough to put out an order specifically prohibiting the picking up of open time. During both of my airline furloughs I got to hear about selfish jerk-offs volunteering for extra flying, even Captains flying right seat for straight time. It made me sick to hear while I was painting houses and scratching for flying work.

It's an issue of integrity and morals, chief. I'm not sure why I'm wasting the time trying to shame you into doing the right thing. You'll continue to rationalize the act because you deserve it. Because you're sure it doesn't really hurt your furloughed brothers. The same rationalization scabs still use to justify their actions in 1983, 1985, 1989. There's no law prohibiting what you and the other selfish aholes are doing, but believe me when I say that you are spitting in the faces of the F9 furloughees.

 

[climb2slow]

Open Time - I hate to rain on everyone's open time circle jerk, but if you actually take a look at our open time over the past several months you will find that we do not have enough open time to build even ONE line. There is commonly several hundred hours of flying in the open time pot, however most of that flying is stacked on a few days (beginning of the month due to transition conflicts) or holidays were the drop limits are maxed during MOT drop and DOT drop. If there was a way that FAPA could bring back one pilot with the flying that is in open time, it would have already been accomplished.

There isn't opentime left because it all gets sucked up by the hungry w************************* who build their lines up in monthly opentime before it opens. It's the same thing whether you pick it up then or later. If everyone only flew their awarded line value, there would be plenty of opentime, or more lines.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

At least they got snapbacks.

















Or did I read that wrong?

 

[Toobdrvr]

Correct on snapbacks. Work rules UNTOUCHED. This is unprecedented. Rumor has it that the TA was less than HALF of what the Company was asking in negotiations, but they were approaching a deadline where they had to have a deal or the DIP lenders were going to call their loan. Almost guaranteed they would have gotten more in 1113...

Under the TA, our payscale puts us in the MIDDLE of what everybody else is making...

None of us wanted a paycut, but the only choice to make was how are we were going to take it...

I don't think the (then) VP of Flight ops had anything to do with our hedging decisions.

 

[328dude]

The pilots of Southwest voted whether to spend dues money to support the Age 65 push. I voted NO. Didn't care for the arbitrary age change. The vote passed, ALPA got onboard and we now retire at 65. Do I like it? Nope. BUT I ACCEPT IT. IMO, that's an example of unity.

Of course you would, you already got your upgrade.

 

[GuppyWN]

Of course you would, you already got your upgrade.

I was a captain before the age change and I still voted no. Did you?

Gup

 

[328dude]

I was a captain before the age change and I still voted no. Did you?

Gup

Typical captain mentality around here. When you upgraded is irrelevant.

****** the junior guy.......!!!!

 

[Bookingsareup]

just because you scream, yell, and think you are making a difference doesn't make it so. I have put forth effective actions we as pilots can achieve to bring back our furloughed pilots- not symbolic pomp and circumstance that will never bring a single sole back. That said, I still suspect you conform to my #1 description since all you have done is throw out some personal attacks. rather than address my points. I consider all of my fellow pilots as brethren and have proved that by my actions. For those who disagree with me I respect your opinion and instead off calling you a scab, ahole, or old woman I put forth facts, and an unemotional argument in attempts to persuade. I do not loath those who disagree with me no matter how ill informed I may believe he or she may be.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have put forth effective actions we as pilots can achieve to bring back our furloughed pilots- .

like what?

 

[starchkr]

While i agree with Gup on picking up opentime in theory, i "almost" have to agree with bookingsareup in actions.

Yes i pick up opentime...why?! Well how about those of us who had a two income family "before" the initial paycuts and downturn in the economy, who now have a single income which has also now been cut by 14.5%(first cut) but brought back up to only a 10% cut. I agreed to have my wife go back to school knowing that my current income(back in january last year) was enough to sqweek by on around the house until she was done...no problem. Then 5 months later when down to one income, which was ok, we got hit with a paycut which brought my income down below liveable standards for my family...those standards being only enough to pay the bills and put food on the table, we didn't need the extras in life right then. So i began to pick up opentime to bring my income back up to the minimum required to support my family...is that so wrong?

I understand the idea of brotherhood and i want the furloughees back just as soon as the next guy, but don't i have an obligation to my family to support them? Some would say yes, some no...in my opinion, my family is the most important thing on earth, and i surely hope you all feel the same about your families.

As far as junior maning goes, i would prefer every pilot not accept a junior man to show the company we are short. For one it costs the company more to send out a JM, which right now is BAD! Also if we were to start having the issue of cancelling flights because of a lack of pilots able to fly then i feel that would help call the furloughs back sooner than JM's ever would.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

While i agree with Gup on picking up opentime in theory, i "almost" have to agree with bookingsareup in actions.

Yes i pick up opentime...

What do you mean ..."almost"....

why?! Well how about those......

.....that are furloughed, bringing in only unemployment checks?

If making a little extra money is so important... (and it may be) then why not get a side gig

I understand the idea of brotherhood and i want the furloughees back just as soon as the next guy, but don't i have an obligation to my family to support them? Some would say yes, some no...in my opinion, my family is the most important thing on earth, and i surely hope you all feel the same about your families.

Glad to hear it... I voted for Obama too.

 

[Cardinal]

For one it costs the company more to send out a JM, which right now is BAD!

So it's BAD for the company to have pilots flying around at 1.5x their rate on a juniorman, but it's GOOD for you to fly around at 1.25x above 82 hours?

Like I said earlier, I knew y'all were going to pick up as much time as ya could. The justifications get kinda nauseating, but whatever.

In all seriousness, I do have one question, and I'm not using the "s" word, I've always like'd you, starchkr. But couldn't the "I just need to pay my family's bills" argument be applied to any withholding of service? Where is the line drawn? At what point are actions that are of a short term benefit to the individual and the company curtailed in the name of a broader cause? I'm genuinely curious, and not trying to be inflammatory.

 

[starchkr]

Cardinal, i'll try to clear up any confusion i may have implied.

As far as 1.25 or 1.5 goes...as a commuter for the last year and a half, i have been lucky to get near 82 hours and still have a home life. My closest i have been was last month and it was a total of 81.7 hours. Now i know that even you know that i did not make 1.25 for ANY of my flying last month, nor did i accept ANY JM calls that came my way(i have not accepted any JM calls in more than 2 years). My average flight time per month was just above 70 (just to keep myself out of Cam's...well now Jim's office) before the cuts and has been holding steady right around 79-80 since the pay cuts. Again, I would rather be at home than on the road with anyone that works at F9...now that wasn't meant to be negative towards the employees here just to show that my family is number one in my book.

I am sorry that there are guys on the street, and that is not my fault that they are there, you would need to look to management to find your answers, and i am sure you saw just as many problems with management as i have over the last year or more. No matter what industry i am in, whether it be flying, banking, construction or anything else, i would still be required to look after my family as my number one priority...period. I made a promise to them to do just that and i intend to uphold that. I understand that as a furloughee in these economic times there may be little if any jobs out there for those 57 to support their families, but i would bet(not being negative here) that they too would see it the same way had i been on the street and they still had a line.

No i do not pick up as much as i could, if i wanted to do that i would have nearly 100 block every month and no time at home, but that's not my intent.

Drawing the line and short term benefit to the individual. Well, for me there is no short term benefit...it's more of a long term survival. I don't pay my bills and i lose the roof over my families head, our cars and anything else i pay for every month. Savings you ask, well, that went to an education, and hopefully once that is done(more than a year and a half away) we will be able to get some of that back in the long term. I realize that is what is happening to some of our furloughees, but again, unfortunately i am not the one who put them out on the street(not being negative again) so i have no idea what they were thinking over at the GO. Now also, that we have agreed to a 10% cut (not happy with that by the way) and the fact that this month i get a pay increase i am able to knock back a few hours from my previous average, to give me more time at home again.

I hope i helped and didn't make it more confusing...(?) Don't know if i exactly answered the last question either, but i really didn't know what to say.

REZ..."almost" was in reference to how i do not like the way he went about it and while i agree more with Gup, i unfortunately follow Book's idea by picking up opentime...but only enough to make up my paycut, not by being an opentime whore.

A little extra money was never the intent, extra is something i agreed with my family to not have until my wife graduates. If i wanted extra i would get another side job, but then again, how would that enable me to spend "more" time at home like i was used to before our pay cuts?

Now last, while i fully stand by that last statement you quoted, i DID NOT vote for Obama...

 

[Captzaahlie]

Don't worry - usair pulled the same "we're liquidating" stunt and it sure turned out fine for their pilots.

Sure except for those of us with out a job right now....

 

[milky]

If making a little extra money is so important... (and it may be) then why not get a side gig

It's none of your business if somebody wants to work a second job or pick up extra time. The contract says that members can pick up extra time. It doesn't say that picking up extra time is illegal if somebody is furloughed. If a man needs to earn money to support his family, that is his business. Why don't you just quit so that somebody can have your job?