Frontier pilots vote to SAVE the airline!!

[Nindiri]

Bookingsareup is right.

I don't pick up any open time because
A. - I'm too lazy to work more than my line and
B. - It's a symbolic show of unity with the furloughed guys.

However, I am under no illusions about the practical value of refusing to pick it up. Management is still going to fill the cockpit seats, but now, instead of using some guy that actually wants or needs the time, they will simply use a reserve or juniorman some poor guy who was about to go home and eat dinner with his family. We posture and brag about not picking up open time, and management laughs and saves money.

 

[sshrae]

Whatever you need to tell yourself pal. While you fly extra enough to "pay your bills" just remember your BROTHERS that are unemployed and can't pay any of their bills.

Any flying over your awared line is too much. Matter of fact I'd probably have anal glaucoma every month for 3 days too!

Why don't you go ahead and give management a paycut while you're being a big ole kitty cat. Oh wait. You just did.

I'm done with you.
Gup

Agreed 100 percent. Its unthinkable to me that you would pick up extra flying while there are guys on the street who cant find another flying job and are hanging on to the possibility of a recall. Karma works in mysterious ways brotha.

 

[carl p]

I'm not sure what you are inferring by this question. I know you can only fly up to the legal amount. I for one have always averaged around 77 hours of actual flight time each month for the last 7 airlines I have been with. The airline will staff based on, well many variables, but primarily on total hours scheduled and average hours flown by its pilots.

Some pilots (I'm not suggesting you are one) believe that if an airline furloughs pilots no one should pick up open time. I strongly disagree with this and here is why:

1. First off, most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!
2. I fly the amount required to pay my bills. I am not going to neglect my financial obligations.
3. For those that suggest I not pick up open time- when will I be free to resume doing so, when all pilots return to the list, some, one?
4. Some furloughed pilots do not wish to return ( I personally know of at least two but, perhaps there are more that I don't even know of)
5. Some furloughed pilots have gone on to other companies and are making more than they made at Frontier. This was my situation at a previous airline where I was furloughed.
6. What about the pilot who is awarded 85 hours of credit vs another who is awarded 75 for a monthly schedule?
7. Where does this "protection" stop-just the furloughed pilots? What about those pilots who were hired and in the pool? What about pilots who were invited to interview and got canceled? Perhaps you at Southwest might have recently experienced this situation (that was not a dig).

And there are more. The point is, we as pilots want all of our Brethren who want to come back to be able to do so. However, to use a tired, overused slogan like "don't pick up open time while pilots are on furlough" gets us nowhere. Ultimately our beef is with management. We want management to do their job and manage the company to growth and profitability thus calling back all furloughed pilots and hiring new ones!

Frank, is that you?

 

[njcapt]

I'm not sure what you are inferring by this question. I know you can only fly up to the legal amount. I for one have always averaged around 77 hours of actual flight time each month for the last 7 airlines I have been with. The airline will staff based on, well many variables, but primarily on total hours scheduled and average hours flown by its pilots.

Some pilots (I'm not suggesting you are one) believe that if an airline furloughs pilots no one should pick up open time. I strongly disagree with this and here is why:

1. First off, most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves!
2. I fly the amount required to pay my bills. I am not going to neglect my financial obligations.
3. For those that suggest I not pick up open time- when will I be free to resume doing so, when all pilots return to the list, some, one?
4. Some furloughed pilots do not wish to return ( I personally know of at least two but, perhaps there are more that I don't even know of)
5. Some furloughed pilots have gone on to other companies and are making more than they made at Frontier. This was my situation at a previous airline where I was furloughed.
6. What about the pilot who is awarded 85 hours of credit vs another who is awarded 75 for a monthly schedule?
7. Where does this "protection" stop-just the furloughed pilots? What about those pilots who were hired and in the pool? What about pilots who were invited to interview and got canceled? Perhaps you at Southwest might have recently experienced this situation (that was not a dig).

And there are more. The point is, we as pilots want all of our Brethren who want to come back to be able to do so. However, to use a tired, overused slogan like "don't pick up open time while pilots are on furlough" gets us nowhere. Ultimately our beef is with management. We want management to do their job and manage the company to growth and profitability thus calling back all furloughed pilots and hiring new ones!

Wow, I guess I have it all wrong. If it wasn't you doing the whoring, there would just be someone else, right? You've made a virtue out of profit at the expense of your furloughed pilots.

Well done.

 

[Bookingsareup]

Whatever you need to tell yourself pal. While you fly extra enough to "pay your bills" just remember your BROTHERS that are unemployed and can't pay any of their bills.

Any flying over your awared line is too much. Matter of fact I'd probably have anal glaucoma every month for 3 days too!

Why don't you go ahead and give management a paycut while you're being a big ole kitty cat. Oh wait. You just did.

I'm done with you.
Gup

Well, She says she's done with me. This is usually what you see from an irrational person. She can't address any of my points so she becomes angry and lashes out with attacks. A few points:

1. I mentioned that I have flown an average of 77 hours each month- not an excessive amount by any stretch. so for those who say I am "whoring" I question that you're even a pilot at an airline.
2. She wants you to believe that she is a crusader for the downtrodden when in fact she probably hasn't ever done anything to help anyone but herself thus conforming to my original post under #1 "First off, most of those strong, vocal advocates against picking up open time and who try and intimidate others in fact, pick up open time themselves"

It is sad that we can't have a substantive discussion without the personal attacks. As pilots we have dedicated our lives to this profession so it is sad when we have people like guppywn and aa73 who do nothing to further our profession, in fact they denigrate it with their unwieldily anger and useless talking points.

 

[mamba20]

Same thing that happened over here at CAL with our '02 contract. Now we are trying to get something back during the worst economic turn down since the great depression. I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the scabs will find a way to screw us again.

 

[Cardinal]

However, to use a tired, overused slogan like "don't pick up open time while pilots are on furlough" gets us nowhere.

As a furloughed F9er, I had made peace with the fact that senior folks would never in a million years stop picking up open time, so whatever. But to see the internal justification broken out in such a fashion destroys any illusions of mere greedy passivity. No, instead we're really just getting the finger.

In defense of the vote, it was a cramdown of the first order. The company had proven it's ability to make an 1113 stick with the mechanics. Most of the airline BKs never got to that point, with settlements occuring before going before the judge. The judge stole 14% of the mechanics pay without breaking a sweat. Thus it was predetermined that the company was going to get their slice from the pilots, and merely a question of how. In all likelihood the judge's ruling wouldn't have been as elegant, the TA has features that the other work groups, such as the mechs, aren't getting (progressive snap-back, 401K match, admittedly useless profit sharing).

Personally, had I been elligible to vote I would have voted no, if only to send a message to Tower Road that we have balls, and we will not roll over during the next negotiating cycle. This is mostly quixotic fantasy, of course, as this pilot group has approved 4 concessionary TAs in a row. (Contract 07, IRRA, IRRRA, and LOA21, for those keeping track at home).

 

[monkeybrains01]

Actually, They do have a plan to increase revenue this time. We will see if it is enough to make a difference though. Pilots, FA's Gate, Ground, etc have all taken cuts and gas is cheap. It's now time for the folks at 7001 Tower Rd. to do their part and make money. I will say this: Who ever pulled the trigger on a 25% fuel hedge at $115 pbl needs to be held accountable for their actions...Ok, now I'm getting off topic.

That was Cam and Collins.

 

[GuppyWN]

OK. I'll engage without rhetoric and namecalling.

Every hour you fly over your awarded line is keeping your furoughed brothers and sisters without a job. You say the company will "just assign to reserves." GOOD. That uses them up. When there is nothing left "they'll just JA" somebody. Even better. You see, that gives your union something to work with. When you guys pick up like nothing is going on, guess what? The GO thinks nothing is going on. When you force them to properly staff the airline they will recall.

Is it a sacrifice? You bet it is. Would I fly my line if my brothers and sisters were on the street? You bet your arse I would.

I will not apologize for getting tourqed at you. You deserve a lesson in brotherhood and making sacrifices that are good for the whole, not just good for you.

It's called unity. You should try it sometime.

Gup

 

[Shrek]

Well put Gup.

 

[Turbine Pilot]

Whatever you need to tell yourself pal. While you fly extra enough to "pay your bills" just remember your BROTHERS that are unemployed and can't pay any of their bills.

Any flying over your awared line is too much. Matter of fact I'd probably have anal glaucoma every month for 3 days too!

Why don't you go ahead and give management a paycut while you're being a big ole kitty cat. Oh wait. You just did.

I'm done with you.
Gup

I have to agree with Bookingsareup that picking up open time while your brothers are furloughed is not a big deal. Pilots just don't get it. Gup if you are so worried about your BROTHERS then lets change the age limit back to 60 so your BROTHERS can have a chance to pay their bills. Those over 60 guys are taking jobs from there BROTHERS...yada yada yada....GUP if you haven't learned by now in avaiton, there is no brotherhood, never was. Funny how that is... Bottom line, we already have to many wannabe pilots willing to work for nothing. At least open time pays what we are worth. Better then hiring or having so many pilots that we all get min pay so we can have a ton of wannabe pilots on board. We need pilots who have worked hard to get that job so they realize what they deserve and fight for it. Look at Fedex or UPS pilots. As for SWA your time is coming where you too will be taking paycuts once your hedges match the other airlines, it is inevitable in avation since there is no brotherhood, never was, and we have too many sell you soul for that job wannabe pilots who we allow to have a job in the first place that haven't earned it yet. If pilots were not willing to work for squat, pilots wouldn't want to work extra....So pick up that open time because that is what pilots are worth. It is fine. The furloughed guys or potential newbies will just have to wait for that 60, I mean 65 year old to retire so he can get his shot. We already have to many wannabe pilots who will work for nothing and sell themself for very little just to have a job and then vote for a paycut to keep it. Screw that. Make them earn that job so they know what they are worth. Gup you got no argument until age 60 is put back in place about there being any BROTHERHOOD! Your age old sayings haven't worked since avaiton was deregulated dude. Wake up. It is becasue pilots work for cheap wages becasue they haven't had to earn it. My 2 cents...

 

[SkiFishFly]

OK. I'll engage without rhetoric and namecalling.

Every hour you fly over your awarded line is keeping your furoughed brothers and sisters without a job. You say the company will "just assign to reserves." GOOD. That uses them up. When there is nothing left "they'll just JA" somebody. Even better. You see, that gives your union something to work with. When you guys pick up like nothing is going on, guess what? The GO thinks nothing is going on. When you force them to properly staff the airline they will recall.

Is it a sacrifice? You bet it is. Would I fly my line if my brothers and sisters were on the street? You bet your arse I would.

I will not apologize for getting tourqed at you. You deserve a lesson in brotherhood and making sacrifices that are good for the whole, not just good for you.

It's called unity. You should try it sometime.

Gup

I agree with GUP!
This type of unity is absolutely necessary with fellow pilots on the street. OBTW - it does work.

 

[Dizel8]

I'm with Gup!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have to agree with Bookingsareup that picking up open time while your brothers are furloughed is not a big deal.

So it IS a deal.....just not a big one.... got it...

Pilots just don't get it. Gup if you are so worried about your BROTHERS then lets change the age limit back to 60 so your BROTHERS can have a chance to pay their bills. Those over 60 guys are taking jobs from there BROTHERS...yada yada yada....

An unrelated issue used to justify?

GUP if you haven't learned by now in avaiton, there is no brotherhood, never was. Funny how that is...

Another individualist..... pull up the ladder I got mine... It is whatever you choose to believe... You and your tool, bookingsareup, just have the ability to rationalize unethical behavior. But your getting called out and being told it is unacceptable...

How you choose to respond is up to you...

Bottom line, we already have to many wannabe pilots willing to work for nothing.

And what were you when you got your commercial license and no Air Line job? Did you wanna be?

At least open time pays what we are worth. Better then hiring or having so many pilots that we all get min pay so we can have a ton of wannabe pilots on board.

We aren't talking about pilots who want to be. We are talking about pilots WHO ARE! These are fellow employees.... F9 pilots just like you....

We need pilots who have worked hard to get that job so they realize what they deserve and fight for it.

Suddenly the furloughed pilots don't appreciate the job... ? the justification in your mind is disgusting and amazing....

In your mind there is no rape.... she deserved it... right?

Look at Fedex or UPS pilots. As for SWA your time is coming where you too will be taking paycuts once your hedges match the other airlines, it is inevitable in avation since there is no brotherhood, never was, and we have too many sell you soul for that job wannabe pilots who we allow to have a job in the first place that haven't earned it yet.

You are a pathetic piece of trash.... again... you were NEVER that wannabe pilot that never sold your soul... you always earned it... you were entitled?

If pilots were not willing to work for squat, pilots wouldn't want to work extra....So pick up that open time because that is what pilots are worth. It is fine. The furloughed guys or potential newbies will just have to wait for that 60, I mean 65 year old to retire so he can get his shot. We already have to many wannabe pilots who will work for nothing and sell themself for very little just to have a job and then vote for a paycut to keep it.

Why not work to make first and second year pay respectable.... The real problem is you and all of us haven't done enough to make this profession worthwhile...

Screw that.

No, screw you.

Make them earn that job so they know what they are worth. Gup you got no argument until age 60 is put back in place about there being any BROTHERHOOD!

So this is really a tirade and temper tantrum about Age 60. What did you and your little union do about Age 60 anyway?

Your age old sayings haven't worked since avaiton was deregulated dude. Wake up. It is becasue pilots work for cheap wages becasue they haven't had to earn it. My 2 cents...

Take your 2 cents back, your opinions are not worth it....

The problem isn't pilots working for cheap, it is because tools like you don't give a shi t and don't work to raise first and second year pay...

Professionalism, maturity, unity, solidarity...... for you.... its a whole different animal....

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

GUP if you haven't learned by now in avaiton, there is no brotherhood, never was.

Really!!! It's that attitude that makes it seem that way.

Tell that to;

1- The CAL pilot that went back to flt 1404 and helped the other injured crewmembers off the aircraft.

2- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that are receiving health benefits reimbursement from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

3- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that were sent a very generous Christmas present from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

I'm sure with your attitude, you would have been all over these programs, NOT!!! Do us all a favor, leave the industry and go into an industry that is all about you!!! Try politics...

Yogi

 

[Jetjockey]

nice post yogi. all true.

 

[Turbine Pilot]

Good let it out! This is the fight pilots need to get what they want. Wait, it is on a message board again. Ok....

This industry is screwed up and as for the old days we use to have to fly cargo for squat to earn that good job. Now the "wannabe pilots" start right out in a RJ. You guys keep telling yourself it will get better, it won't. Look at the trend what i'm saying. There might be an instance of brotherhood for a breif moment like comair striking, but aviation never had brotherhood together ever at the same time between all airlines. The only way that is possible is a national union with national payrates. That is not possible so the industry is just one big backstabbing industry. You guys keep believing what you want. Oh yeah, the age 60 is an issue, it is part of that brotherhood thing....hence this issue. If those guys would leave, we would have more brothers off the street...

 

[Turbine Pilot]

The problem isn't pilots working for cheap, it is because tools like you don't give a shi t and don't work to raise first and second year pay...

Take my 2 cents back....Nice

Well then why is that I keep voting to not take a paycut, but most of the junior guys are? How do you know what I have done? I have tried many times and this is how I realized how there is no brotherhood and nothing will change the way were doing it right now. Most of the pilots hired within the last few years didn't pay enough dues to want enough. They are just worried about keeping there job over what they are paid.

You are an wait, I'm better then that. I respect your ideas but don't agree.

 

[Turbine Pilot]

Really!!! It's that attitude that makes it seem that way.

Tell that to;

1- The CAL pilot that went back to flt 1404 and helped the other injured crewmembers off the aircraft.

2- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that are receiving health benefits reimbursement from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

3- The 147 furloughed pilots at CAL that were sent a very generous Christmas present from their fellow pilot brothers and sisters.

I'm sure with your attitude, you would have been all over these programs, NOT!!! Do us all a favor, leave the industry and go into an industry that is all about you!!! Try politics...

Yogi

Well they did a great thing saving people.

The other two remarks are in the same boat as pensions and age 60 rule. Why don't you fight to get them back for your brothers who are going to be all alone now with no retirement.

All this would take a national union with pilots who won't back off. I tried but realize it is impossible and this industry isn't worth my time anymore. I realized there is no brotherhood, no backbone, and just all talk, especially on the message boards.

 

[Cardinal]

For the record, it appears Turbine Pilot is Mesa, not Frontier.