Frontier pilots please read:

[Lowpayisgreat]

Well here it comes. If the compamy is telling you 4 years to upgrade that is also the oldest trick in the book when almost everyone is hiring. Wait tell late next year when UAl, NWA start to hire. I bet they will say 3 years which they will be right becasue it will be obvious by then what they are doing so why not leave to one of the legacys. Almost all the flying out of STL which was done by TWA is now RJ's. The traveling public hates them. F9 always sold the service and nice jets. Well once people start showing up and find out they are on a TP it will piss them off. Remember Potter is the CEO to run the company or profit. So when he asks for a pay freeze, which he as in the new TA make sure you take it, and while your at it see if he want your wife to whore out so make a few extra bucks and maybe you can sell one of your kids kidneys to help him out also. What a bunch of dum Sh$ts to sit back and do nothing.

 

[f9r]

Dude, you really shouldn't go near the computer until you've taken your medication. Getting ready for that Southwest interview?

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Good Luck dude,

F9, You just don't see it. That's ok most of America is stupid too so you are not alone. Let me know how the wage freeze in the TA you never address goes and the slow growth in mainline. I can't wait 12 to 18 months from now to say I told you so. But hey company loyality is big in the airline industy, from managment I mean. I would suggest you get Potters numbers so when you need a loan you can call him at his new job when he moves on to bigger and better deals and gets away from the smoking wreak. Hey F9 let me hear you deny the new TA that will be out in several weeks. Just remember that the senior guys in the union are all Captains so if mainline growth stalls what do they care, its not like they aren't going to move up to the B777. They got everything they need, the left seat. Go ahead and deny it.

 

[climb2slow]

Personally, I think the sooner we can get you off the property things will get better! Your constant positive attitude and stellar personality are just what they need over at SWA. As to the "TA", I guess we shall see about it. Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

 

[OpenClimb]

Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

Which is why the TA will pass. It's not really a "pay reduction" it's just a "pay freeze". For most captains it will be approximately a 2 year pay freeze. For FO's who may upgrade, they'll make 3% less than captains who've gone before. Nevermind that the built-in COLA will not cover even 1/4 of the inflation we'll experience during the life of the contract--or that it will barely bring us back to where we are now. Nevermind that the rest of the industry is on its way back up while we're about to approve a concessionary agreement. Nevermind that we'll also be giving up work rules and basically buying (by trading the ESOP) a very limited retirement plan--that also favors the senior folks.

I'm frequently frustrated, but all of the above is actually fairly predictable. From an objective viewpoint, I have to remind myself that I went to work for Wal-Mart, not Nordstroms. The business plan of an LCC includes _Low Costs_. Whenever the higher-end carriers lower their costs, it redefines low costs which puts downward pressure on LCC's to maintain their cost advantage.

It sucks, but it's true. I realize that all of the above will bring out the "then go somewhere else" comments, but understand that I'm not unhappy to be working for Frontier and I've made a conscious effort to present a positive attitude while I'm at work. The point is that part of not being frustrated by the situation is understanding it and trying to be objective rather than emotional.

I don't know... I guess it works for me.

 

[AnimalTale]

Personally, I think the sooner we can get you off the property things will get better! Your constant positive attitude and stellar personality are just what they need over at SWA. As to the "TA", I guess we shall see about it. Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

LOWPAY is off property, HE is on a LOA.
Pretty soon I hope Purple hires him, for his own sake. Because he seems so miserable and unhappy here.

Scope is important and everybody has valid points. But dont let Lowpay or TOGA fool you, F9 is a temporary stop in their careers. They will move on to SWA, FEDEX and UPS, only to complain about those companies when they are there.

For all you F9 hopefuls, when you do get an interview here, make sure this is the place you want to be. DOnt waste your time interviewing and commutting only to complain and hate your job.

Good Luck & CYA

 

[BlueCanoe]

Get a holdings scope like at RAH. Multiple companies, one list....

Do it....

 

[TOGA]

But dont let Lowpay or TOGA fool you, F9 is a temporary stop in their careers. They will move on to SWA, FEDEX and UPS, only to complain about those companies when they are there.

Well, with that baseless insult, you've proven your own myopia. I actually decided to come to F9 instead of sticking it out in the left seat of an RJ, hoping for 'the next best thing' to come along because I believe in this company. That's precisely why I'm "complaining" so much . . . I want to retire from Frontier Airlines, not sit idly by while my (and your) future is destroyed. Why on earth would I leave 95 hours/month of turbine PIC, take a 25% pay cut, and leave my family five days/week to commute across the country to the bottom a small seniority list when I was in the top 25% of a big one if I considered Frontier a "temporary stop" in my career?! I may be stupid enough to pursue flying for a living, but I'd like to believe I'm not a complete idiot. If Frontier becomes a "temporary stop" in my career, it will be because I've lost faith in our leadership, and I have to do what's best for my family. I really want to sell the house in Ohio, move the family back to Colorado, and live happily ever after. However, I don't feel real confident doing that with these shenanigans going on. That is why I'm "complaining".

 

[AnimalTale]

Well, with that baseless insult, you've proven your own myopia. I actually decided to come to F9 instead of sticking it out in the left seat of an RJ, hoping for 'the next best thing' to come along because I believe in this company. That's precisely why I'm "complaining" so much . . . I want to retire from Frontier Airlines, not sit idly by while my (and your) future is destroyed. Why on earth would I leave 95 hours/month of turbine PIC, take a 25% pay cut, and leave my family five days/week to commute across the country to the bottom a small seniority list when I was in the top 25% of a big one if I considered Frontier a "temporary stop" in my career?! I may be stupid enough to pursue flying for a living, but I'd like to believe I'm not a complete idiot. If Frontier becomes a "temporary stop" in my career, it will be because I've lost faith in our leadership, and I have to do what's best for my family. I really want to sell the house in Ohio, move the family back to Colorado, and live happily ever after. However, I don't feel real confident doing that with these shenanigans going on. That is why I'm "complaining".

I apologize if u feel I was bad mouthing you. Your posts tend to lead me to think you are very pessimistic and downright uncomfortable working for FRONTIER.

Do you think there are 590 "idiot" pilots in front of you on the seniority list? Do you think, you, an EX-EXPRESS JET Pilot, has more wisdom and knowledge about scope than your team members? I DONT THINK SO! Look around you next time you are in the crew lounge. I bet you a majority of pIlots in that room were from Majors and before the Majors, they probably flew for Regionals. They just dont have the "chicken little" attitude you exude.

My brother, your concern is all of our concern. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is have OUR flying SHIFT to an alter-ego airline. Just relax, your attitude is what is going to make Frontier's Culture Sour up. And if you really dont like the commutte or have faith in the airline, dont torture yourself or your family, LEAVE.

Cya

 

[Captain Overs]

Animal Tale your an ***********************************! I think TOGA knows what he's talking about. Do the research on Continental and ExpressJet before you run your piehole. He knows more about scope than most people. Read his previous posts. He was at Expressjet when it was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL. He lived through the spinoff and saw Expressjet grow while CAL shrunk.

You my friend should do your homework before you start pointing the fingers at someone else.

 

[ex-nutjeter]

Ah yes, there are the few like Animaletale who think that everything is just great and that is how it will always be to them no matter how much is taken away, to them F9 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[jetalc]

Look - he's alive!! What do you get excited about, Ex-Nutjob? Anything?

Always good to hear your constructive input. We've missed you.

 

[AnimalTale]

Animal Tale your an ***********************************! I think TOGA knows what he's talking about. Do the research on Continental and ExpressJet before you run your piehole. He knows more about scope than most people. Read his previous posts. He was at Expressjet when it was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL. He lived through the spinoff and saw Expressjet grow while CAL shrunk.

You my friend should do your homework before you start pointing the fingers at someone else.

PIEHOLE? How old are u Stifler?
**YAWN** You my friend need to do your homework. I CHOOSE to do my job. No body owes me anything. If I do not like my job, I will look elswhere. I wont sit there complaining and contaminating the culture by "SPEWing" venom to the general public and CRYing WOLF.

In fact, I will tell you a little secret: F9 is probably one of the better airlines out there. IMHO, Our mangement, union, pilot group, pay and schedules are amongst the BEST ((in general I think airline pilots are underpaid) (I will have to be forced to leave this place))!!!!!!!! Sure we have our problems and I do agree SCOPE/Pay is important but how has SCOPE/Pay been protected by any of the other airlines in the past???????????? You let me know? One bancruptcy and SCOPE/Pay go down the toilet!

Have a nice day and in all sincerity I hope our industry starts recovering again.

CCCCCCYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAA

 

[AnimalTale]

Ah yes, there are the few like Animaletale who think that everything is just great and that is how it will always be to them no matter how much is taken away, to them F9 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Ex-Nut,

Look around bro, everything is great! F9 is awesome> I enjoy coming to work and I like the people I fly with (most of them).

If I hated F9, like you do, I would leave. I would not torture myself and make my life miserable by staying someplace I hated.

BTW, I am no spring chicken either. I have been at a few SCOPE effected regionals and a couple of majors. I should be the one with a BAD attitude, but I choose to live my life with out depending on the airlines and I choose to live my life knowing that nobody OWES me anything!

Trust me you will live longer!

Good Luck Ex-nut

Cya

 

[TOGA]

Do you think there are 590 "idiot" pilots in front of you on the seniority list? Do you think, you, an EX-EXPRESS JET Pilot, has more wisdom and knowledge about scope than your team members? I DONT THINK SO! Look around you next time you are in the crew lounge. I bet you a majority of pIlots in that room were from Majors and before the Majors, they probably flew for Regionals. They just dont have the "chicken little" attitude you exude.

Well, as much as you would apparently like to make this a thread of competing personal attacks, I refuse to allow it to degnenerate to that level. In fact, I'd like to apologize for my previous "myopia" comment, it served no purpose. I must say that I appreciate that you've pointed out my error of omission. I never specifically came out and said why I'm the one posting all this. It's not because I'm smarter, more experienced, or in any way better than anyone else. In fact, I'm pretty much a 'spring chicken' compared to a large portion of this pilot group. To be honest with you, I'm not sure why I'm the one . . . I can assure you it's not because I think I know better, or because I'm unhappy here. On the contrary, I think I've made it abundantly clear that I'm agitated about this specifically because I like it here, and I don't want that to change. As for the former of those points, not only do I not think I'm better than anyone else, I see the fact that the company would forego their utilization of the valuable resources our current pilot group offers as a grave error. What I mean to say is . . . we have a pool of motivated, dedicated, experienced professionals, and they're going to hire 'rookies' who will have no reason to give a crap about Frontier?! Who would you rather have flying the Q400 with our passengers (and our non-revving family, friends, and co-workers) in it and our name on the side . . . a Frontier pilot who was recently flying Dash 8s in the mountains, or a time-builder who just came out of a Seminole in Florida? On the same note, who should be writing the manuals? Creating the training program? Doing sim training? Doing IOE? Etc, etc. I am regularly humbled by the experience level and professionalism of those I fly with . . . people on their seventh (eighth, ninth!) airline, people who served our country for decades . . . the guys and gals who've built this airline from the ground up. It is with precisely that respect, combined with my relatively meager experience, that I write all of this. It is with precisely with that respect that I refuse to enter into a pointless battle of personal attacks.

 

[Shrek]

Then don't.

Stay strong - stay unified - back your reps. Nothing wrong with opposing opinions but call them directly.........on the phone or buy them a beer and hash it out. Sometimes there are things that one side or the other that they did not realize or think about. I think this is a healthy thing.........disagreement means that there is a thought process goin on.

BTW - to put this stuff on a public forum is bad form.

 

[Captain Overs]

PIEHOLE? How old are u Stifler?
**YAWN** You my friend need to do your homework. I CHOOSE to do my job. No body owes me anything. If I do not like my job, I will look elswhere. I wont sit there complaining and contaminating the culture by "SPEWing" venom to the general public and CRYing WOLF.

In fact, I will tell you a little secret: F9 is probably one of the better airlines out there. IMHO, Our mangement, union, pilot group, pay and schedules are amongst the BEST ((in general I think airline pilots are underpaid) (I will have to be forced to leave this place))!!!!!!!! Sure we have our problems and I do agree SCOPE/Pay is important but how has SCOPE/Pay been protected by any of the other airlines in the past???????????? You let me know? One bancruptcy and SCOPE/Pay go down the toilet!

Have a nice day and in all sincerity I hope our industry starts recovering again.

CCCCCCYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAA

Your myopia keeps you from seeing the dangers down the road. You are the type of employee who doesn't question things. You continue to put your head in the sand and then someday will wake up and say "Why is mainline not growing? How come Lynx is much bigger than we are?" You think it's a joke. At one point during Expressjet growth they actually had MORE departures a day than Continental. I'm sure when they were just a "feeder" there were Continental pilots who said "Who cares if Calex gets a few jets."

I think you're sounding like the "Stifler". How much PIC do you have?

 

[AnimalTale]

Your myopia keeps you from seeing the dangers down the road. You are the type of employee who doesn't question things. You continue to put your head in the sand and then someday will wake up and say "Why is mainline not growing? How come Lynx is much bigger than we are?" You think it's a joke. At one point during Expressjet growth they actually had MORE departures a day than Continental. I'm sure when they were just a "feeder" there were Continental pilots who said "Who cares if Calex gets a few jets."

I think you're sounding like the "Stifler". How much PIC do you have?

OK, STUD, you made your point. PM me well chat a little (if I am worthy)! Believe me CAPTAIN STUD, I question many things. I just choose not to be miserable and "spew" venom about my employer (who pays my bills) on a public forum.

KIT,

CYA

 

[Captain Overs]

Nothing to chat about so don't take it personal. I don't think TOGA is being negative. You actually have the right attitude, however, don't get complacent. You should enjoy where you work and hope for the best, but you also need to get involved and be aware of what your company is doing.

If our congress (employees) would've done that to our president (employer) maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we're in in Iraq. Just a thought.

 

[Shrek]

Hey Capt OVERS is your real name SEN. John Kerry ?!!!!

 

[AnimalTale]

Nothing to chat about so don't take it personal. I don't think TOGA is being negative. You actually have the right attitude, however, don't get complacent. You should enjoy where you work and hope for the best, but you also need to get involved and be aware of what your company is doing.

If our congress (employees) would've done that to our president (employer) maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we're in in Iraq. Just a thought.

Thank you.

Cya

 

[Captain Overs]

Hey Capt OVERS is your real name SEN. John Kerry ?!!!!

No it's John Murtha. Thank you very much. And please don't tell me you fell for that white house spin? If you see his whole quote you see he was making a jab at Bush, not the troops. His audience knew it as well that's why they were laughing. If you only saw the Fox News coverage then I understand why you think that way. I saw the Fox clip and it was taken out of context of the larger quote. Fox misrepresenting the facts? Who would believe it?


Mr. Murtha

 

[Shrek]

LOL..........that was pretty good........

 

[SuperLoser121]

So that this thread might get back on point;

The company and union mouthpiece both speak with one voice and that voice says one list is too expensive or one list won't work. Why please? Give us some facts FAPA. How? Can we please hear some figures from Frontier, not just because Thomas/Potter says so. It worked at Jetblue did it not? Let me say this again, as many on here rarely look outside their home base. At Jetblue the E-190's are on the same list. Has anyone at FAPA or the company looked into how much it's going to cost to get another building, another dispatch center, computers, schedulers, office equipment, accounting; etc?! The costs are staggering, just how much money is going to be saved by letting labor at Lynx be non - union/b or c scale? Not enough to buy, rent, or build another GO methinks. We all know what the quality of service is like at the low paying regional level, and in order to generate the kind of savings to make any sense, the pilots, mechanics, managers, and FA's are going to have to work for free. Has our union done ANY analysis of the costs involved vs. cost of labor savings? The cheapest thing to do is put the 10 --400's at Frontier, hire the guys to staff it, use the existing infrasructure, and if it doesn't work, then return the aircraft to the leasors and furlough the extra pilots and flight attendants. As far as how to staff it and how classes would work, well just like at Jet Blue or any other airline, seniority in class gets you a base assignment and and an equipment assignment. Keep the pay rates low on the -400 and you won't generate extra training costs. Call it a "B" scale or whatever, it' not rocket science people.

Unless of course someone is NOT telling the truth.

 

[F9 Buff]

So, any idea when FAPA is going to make this request? The folks at the GO are putting all this stuff together right now, not next month or even next year. The wheels are already rolling on Lynx and if the pilots at Frontier don't start talking right now and get what they can, they will be left out in the cold.

So the question is, when will the requests be made by FAPA and when will management reply?

 

[TOGA]

Well, guys I spent four hours yesterday listening to the CP, VP of Flt Ops, COO and CEO talk. I asked several questions regarding Lynx and, specifically, why it 'needs' to be a separate company. Additionally, I've talked to two FAPA board members in the last couple of days. For whatever my opinion is worth, there's absolutely no way we're going to get a 'one list' arrangement. I still firmly believe that it is the only solution to this situation, but it just isn't going to happen. Management has good reasons to want two separate companies . . . reasons that seem to involve the long-term success of Frontier Airlines, Inc. I do not believe that anyone in our current management team has ulterior motives in forming separate companies. This does not mean that I'm any less concerned about the long-term risk we run under new management . . . whenever and however that change might occur. Furthermore, I'm convinced that the battle for one list would require far more unity and sacrifice than this pilot group is able or willing to put forth and endure. So, I'm going to try to be like so many of my colleagues and find my 'happy place' and hope for the best. There are some great things coming to us here at Frontier, and I look forward to the upcoming changes and advancements I've heard about over the last couple of days. Let's just hope we can survive in this screwed up industry. Pass the Rocky Mountain Kool-Aid! :beer:

 

[ultrarunner]

Hey TOGA, take a look at the 1y and 2y FRNT charts. What you think is the best for the pilot group, may not necessarily be best for the shareholder. FRNT has been on a slide, and like it or not, FRNT mangement's first responsiblity is to act in, what THEY believe, is in the best interest of the investor. And like it or not, it's going to be more expensive to run those airplanes on FRNT than it will be as a wholly-owned subsidiary.

 

[colorado14hi]

TOGA -
Any indication in the meetings regarding when they (management) plan to announce the successor to Horizon?

 

[F9 Driver]

Pinnacle?

Frontier Airlines to announce regional operator soon
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/53296.html#

By CATHERINE TSAI | Associated Press
December 7, 2006

DENVER (AP) - Frontier Airlines expects to announce within the next 45 days who will be the new operator of its regional service, Chief Financial Officer Paul Tate said Thursday.

Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc., the parent company of the Denver-based low-fare carrier, has been seeking bids from airlines interested in flying 17 regional jets.

Horizon Air had been flying nine CRJ-700 regional jets under the Frontier JetExpress brand since 2004. Frontier and Horizon, a subsidiary of Seattle-based Alaska Air Group Inc., decided to part ways as Frontier expanded the regional service.

Tate said at the Calyon Securities airline conference in New York that an announcement on the new operator would likely come in 30 to 45 days.

In September, Frontier also said it would buy 10 Q400 aircraft from Bombardier Inc.

Tate said the planes, with their powerful engines that are well-suited to mountain flying, were perfect for serving Telluride, Aspen and Vail. Frontier is interested in getting into all three ski resort towns, Tate said.

"We want to be Colorado's best airline. You can't be Colorado's best airline and not serve those markets," he said.

Frontier faces competition in Denver from United Airlines, which has a hub here, and Southwest Airlines, which reintroduced service here in January. Expanding to cities where Southwest would not fly and to Mexico will help Frontier diversify a bit from Denver, Tate said.

For instance, Frontier already offers service to the Mexican cities of Cabo San Lucas, Cancun and Puerto Vallarta from cities other than Denver.

Adding service in Mexico, where there is less competition, offers more profitable opportunities than trying to steal market share domestically, Tate said.

Frontier shares were trading down 18 cents at $7.50 midday Thursday on the Nasdaq Stock Market.

 

[TOGA]

UltraRunner -

I'm not sure I understand your post fully. I don't know what "1y and 2y FRNT charts" are. As for what's best for the pilot group 'versus' what's best for the shareholders, I stand by my first post on this thread. How has 'FRNT been on a slide'? I agree, and I've stated before, that management's responsibility is to the shareholders. As for the last sentence of your post, I was hoping that management could look beyond direct operating cost, into the intangibles of turnover, dedication, motivation and efficiency . . . not so, I'm afraid. So be it.

Hey TOGA, take a look at the 1y and 2y FRNT charts. What you think is the best for the pilot group, may not necessarily be best for the shareholder. FRNT has been on a slide, and like it or not, FRNT mangement's first responsiblity is to act in, what THEY believe, is in the best interest of the investor. And like it or not, it's going to be more expensive to run those airplanes on FRNT than it will be as a wholly-owned subsidiary.