Frontier pilots please read:

[Lowpayisgreat]

Stagnation you bet

The Q400 will fly 1200 miles, IE MCI, LAS, ABQ to name a few. Things will slow and the original plan for 70 Airbus will prob really happen verses getting new ones. For anyone hired after Feb of 04 no upgrade to captain with 70 jets. I know since I'm in that group. The Q400 really makes it look as upgrade will not happen under current fleet plans. I like the post that said Captain in four year "management said so" Well folks TWA said captain in 5 now look. Remember "concept, design, IPO, build, make the books and the operation look good and then SELL to get your money" Someday they will polish the bithch up and sell it and we have all seen it , Morris, Republic, TWA, Reno. Well those guys really made out well. Also keep in mide that the company in the fall of 2004 sold 93 mill dollars in Class C stock that has a mandatory buy back period starting in 2009 for fours years at between 21 to 24 mill per year or they must refinance. They are using that money from F9 mainline to start lynx. They are gambling with your future. But Potter is our friend so he would never screw the employees. It's business, so he would if they thought it would get the most bang for the buck verses selling it. Remember F9 and its management has proven themselves so they can now go to other airline jobs, They are now in the "in" crowd and deserve to be, thus your future is less sucure since they now have options. They are there to run a company and could give a ******************** about you, your family or your upgrade. They are their to build and run a business. Nothing personal, you are just a pawn so save our money and never forget you can only depend on yourself, friends and family. Stop being so Idealistic, thats how 15 million Germans were convince to join the Nazi party.

 

[f9r]

So many more reasons for you to go to Southwest. Which College did you say you went to?

 

[GuppyWN]

F9R, Growth that takes away your upgrade and kills your quality of life is NOT GOOD GROWTH.

Gup

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Lack of education

F9 is hiring highschool grads with no degrees for a reason. An uneducated work force is an easly munipulated work force. GuppyWN you are right they are selling this as growth and its good for the work force. Well they will most likely bring in good revenue, but will take away some flying within the 1200 mile ring. And for your info I am going so bite me. Good luck let me know what its like to sit in the right seat forever, but hey we got Q400. Try looking at the big picture and keep our resume up to speed.

 

[B727Driver]

Careful Frontier pilots, looking long term, Mgmt may decide to purchase 319's for the Lynx (alter ego) certificate, pursue DOT certification and get approval. Once this happens, Frontier as we know it is done. This has happened and it would be a darn shame. Frontier is a wonderful airline with A+ employees but greed at the top will destroy it. The bean counters look at costs and a cheaper way to do business. Good luck. My bet is the Lynx will not be union (full of company promises and B.S. but no union)

 

[F9 Buff]

Careful Frontier pilots, looking long term, Mgmt may decide to purchase 319's for the Lynx (alter ego) certificate, pursue DOT certification and get approval.

To me, this is the biggest fear and really the only threat to Frontier pilots. So are the Frontier pilots fighting to prevent this kind of thing from happening? If the folks at the GO fight this at all, then there is probably cause to worry, but if they don't then you know they aren't out to eventually replace you guys.

I remember when the order happened that they said they are only looking to fly these things as far as a 700 mile ring around Denver not 1200 or whatever. Is there any way that the pilots can make Frontier agree that Lynx will never fly any aircraft larger than this and they can not fly to any current F9 mainline cities? Maybe a limitiation that they can only fly to cities that have a population of a certain amount (small cities)?

I would think this needs to be something that is talked about quickly or Frontier pilots may miss out. I am also willing to be that F9 management would agree to something like this without putting up much of a fight.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Here's were its going

They will fly the Q400 to any destination within its range were they can fill it up verses a airbus that would be 70% full. Its business. I predict in 2 years they will have 20 Q400's and some type of 90 seat jet to supplement the Q400. Look at the 2Qt report and not the revunue loss on the new SWA routsw they are all negative. Its in a power point slide show on the .org page. Its coming and its an old play right out of the manual.

 

[F9 Buff]

They will fly the Q400 to any destination within its range were they can fill it up verses a airbus that would be 70% full.

So you are saying they wake up one morning, go in to work and see that ABQ is not sold out today so they will just do an a/c swap? That creates too many nightmares down the road. How are they supposed to get 132 pax on the return flight to DEN after that? If you are talking about a permanent a/c swap then I could see that for some cities that can't support a 319 but then again that is what the 318s were for. If it is a city that is that bad in terms of loads then we never should have served it and I can't think of any that F9 flies to that can't support at least a 318? And for the ones that can't support a 318 or are new cities, that's what JetX is for.

I think this is where it is the pilot's duty to get some stipulations put on Lynx and put these stipulations in now.

I can't find it right now on the .org site but I do remember them saying it will not fly farther than about 700-800 miles. I think it was Joe Hodas that said this?

 

[Smarta$$]

So if it is one list for pilots, what is the company to gain by allowing this?

You have to think that they are going to be paying regional wages for these Q400 pilots. They also probably don't want people to get hired, fly the "little prop" for a year or so, and then when they get the seniority they move to the bus and more money has to be spent to get them trained for that aircraft along with their replacement in the Q400 again.

I think it would be great for Frontier to have one list, but I don't see them allowing it because it will cost them so much more in the end. I am not sure how the company will be happy if the pilots are all on one list.

Also the other thing you have to wonder, if the pilots get this, then why not other work groups too?

True or not. This thinking is why our industry is so F-ed up with pilots forced to work for mcdonalds wages. How about even just ONE SINGLE mainline stand up and say that they will have a feeder that does not fly for 20K.

 

[B727Driver]

It is this way because there are pilots willing to do this for the experience to fly the big jet for the big money. When it is their turn, someone will do to them what they did and they will find themselves flying the big jet for less money. Mgmt loves this and the proof is......they fund it. "We will get XYZ to codeshare with us as our Express, Link carrier" and so on. The circle continues. Look at SWA, no feeder or commuter airline and 35 yrs of profits (ok, don't start the hedging fight.) They also have not used the BK loophole to hose their workforce. They have paid their bills, hedged fuel, and shared the profits. Nice job!!

 

[TOGA]

B727Driver -
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying all of this for my own selfish, short-term desires. I want what's best for Frontier, long term. That largely depends on Frontier keeping its employees happy, or at least not unhappy. I feel this is especially true of Frontier, and especially true at this stage in the evolution of Frontier as a company.

F9 Buff -
First of all, awesome pictures . . . I've admired your work for years. As for what F9 has to gain with my one list suggestion, see above. Ahh, the 'training replacement cost' argument . . . what's more expensive the 'three training cycles' to move a pilot from the Q400 to the 'Bus, or the incalculable cost of high turnover, low morale and no dedication? I'd use the same argument to counter the suggestion that a separate company is cheaper for the company because they'd pay separate-list Lynx pilots less. Also, keep in mind that a certain number of training cycles are inevitable due to growth and attrition, and some are funded by the aircraft manufacturers.
Other work groups would have to fend for themselves, I'm afraid. I've suggested that the FAs be brought under the FAPA umbrella . . . 'not going to happen' was the response from FAPA. As far as the rest of your points regarding FAPA placing limits on F9's use of Lynx . . . that's called a scope clause, and they're working out the details of our new one right now. According to the company, the scope clause we already have (that bars Lynx) is between FAPA pilots and Frontier Airlines, not Frontier Airlines Holdings. uke: If the last five years of this industry's history haven't proved that scope clauses don't work, I don't know what will. That's exactly the crux of my argument here . . . FAPA's going for scope, scope doesn't work, we need to do something about it right now.

NoJoy -
FAPA has said that they do not want to represent separate-list Lynx pilots due to possible representational conflicts of interest.

 

[F9 Buff]

According to the company, the scope clause we already have (that bars Lynx) is between FAPA pilots and Frontier Airlines, not Frontier Airlines Holdings.

That, I did not know about... I guess they probably don't announce this kind of stuff on the myfrontier site. With that news, I am now kind of worried.

So is the company at all open to this scope that FAPA is trying to get put in with Frontier Holdings or have they denied that one too? Not sure what leverage you guys will have at that point though. I would think FAPA would want to get this taken care of asap. Any time table on this stuff?

If they deny scope then it becomes obvious that the whipsawing can begin when they want. Does F9 become a sinking ship if that happens?

 

[Cardinal]

Hate to state the obvious, but the 70 seat RJ barn door was left open years ago. Admittedly the Q400s carry with them the slippery slope of the holding company shellgame, and have the potential to become a nightmare. Yet let's not start to fry the Lynx pilots in absentia when perfectly viable turbojet flying has also been orphaned.

 

[macdu]

TOGA is right my friends. I have no dog in this fight so to speak but I have been around the patch a few times and let me tell you as anyone will who has been in the 121 arena for the past 18 to 20 years; The company will find a way around just about whatever you throw up at it. If they want this to happen they will fight to win and take no prisoners. The F9 pilots will have to get your lawyers to close all the loopholes in a document that states that all flying is to be done by the F9 pilots on a F9 seniority list if that is what you want, and, if they throw up there arms and say, no way, well, I guess you will know then were you stand.
This regional against mainline crap is old management hat. Just look around guy's at all your buddies elsewhere. APA couldn't stop the RJ's at Eagle and look where those things fly to. Those little orange scope badges proved worthless against a company willing to do whatever it takes to get it. I hate to sound so dire but about the only thing that the company would feel threatened by is a job action. You start shutting the place down if we don't get xyz. Oh, wait a minute I forgot, we are all selfish pilot whores. Your doomed.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

TOGA is right my friends...<snip> APA couldn't stop the RJ's at Eagle and look where those things fly to

We lost 100 lines of flying to Eagle when the F-100's went away. Nearly every Eagle destination used to be an AA F-100 or even a 727.

The "inside-the-Y" K Concourse at ORD used to be all AA gates...now at least 6 of them are Eagle.

A alter-ego airline will be used against you...bet on it. Remember this when the time comes.

Unit
Permanent FO