Frontier pilots please read:

[F9 Buff]

Careful Frontier pilots, looking long term, Mgmt may decide to purchase 319's for the Lynx (alter ego) certificate, pursue DOT certification and get approval.

To me, this is the biggest fear and really the only threat to Frontier pilots. So are the Frontier pilots fighting to prevent this kind of thing from happening? If the folks at the GO fight this at all, then there is probably cause to worry, but if they don't then you know they aren't out to eventually replace you guys.

I remember when the order happened that they said they are only looking to fly these things as far as a 700 mile ring around Denver not 1200 or whatever. Is there any way that the pilots can make Frontier agree that Lynx will never fly any aircraft larger than this and they can not fly to any current F9 mainline cities? Maybe a limitiation that they can only fly to cities that have a population of a certain amount (small cities)?

I would think this needs to be something that is talked about quickly or Frontier pilots may miss out. I am also willing to be that F9 management would agree to something like this without putting up much of a fight.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Here's were its going

They will fly the Q400 to any destination within its range were they can fill it up verses a airbus that would be 70% full. Its business. I predict in 2 years they will have 20 Q400's and some type of 90 seat jet to supplement the Q400. Look at the 2Qt report and not the revunue loss on the new SWA routsw they are all negative. Its in a power point slide show on the .org page. Its coming and its an old play right out of the manual.

 

[F9 Buff]

They will fly the Q400 to any destination within its range were they can fill it up verses a airbus that would be 70% full.

So you are saying they wake up one morning, go in to work and see that ABQ is not sold out today so they will just do an a/c swap? That creates too many nightmares down the road. How are they supposed to get 132 pax on the return flight to DEN after that? If you are talking about a permanent a/c swap then I could see that for some cities that can't support a 319 but then again that is what the 318s were for. If it is a city that is that bad in terms of loads then we never should have served it and I can't think of any that F9 flies to that can't support at least a 318? And for the ones that can't support a 318 or are new cities, that's what JetX is for.

I think this is where it is the pilot's duty to get some stipulations put on Lynx and put these stipulations in now.

I can't find it right now on the .org site but I do remember them saying it will not fly farther than about 700-800 miles. I think it was Joe Hodas that said this?

 

[Smarta$$]

So if it is one list for pilots, what is the company to gain by allowing this?

You have to think that they are going to be paying regional wages for these Q400 pilots. They also probably don't want people to get hired, fly the "little prop" for a year or so, and then when they get the seniority they move to the bus and more money has to be spent to get them trained for that aircraft along with their replacement in the Q400 again.

I think it would be great for Frontier to have one list, but I don't see them allowing it because it will cost them so much more in the end. I am not sure how the company will be happy if the pilots are all on one list.

Also the other thing you have to wonder, if the pilots get this, then why not other work groups too?

True or not. This thinking is why our industry is so F-ed up with pilots forced to work for mcdonalds wages. How about even just ONE SINGLE mainline stand up and say that they will have a feeder that does not fly for 20K.

 

[B727Driver]

It is this way because there are pilots willing to do this for the experience to fly the big jet for the big money. When it is their turn, someone will do to them what they did and they will find themselves flying the big jet for less money. Mgmt loves this and the proof is......they fund it. "We will get XYZ to codeshare with us as our Express, Link carrier" and so on. The circle continues. Look at SWA, no feeder or commuter airline and 35 yrs of profits (ok, don't start the hedging fight.) They also have not used the BK loophole to hose their workforce. They have paid their bills, hedged fuel, and shared the profits. Nice job!!

 

[TOGA]

B727Driver -
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying all of this for my own selfish, short-term desires. I want what's best for Frontier, long term. That largely depends on Frontier keeping its employees happy, or at least not unhappy. I feel this is especially true of Frontier, and especially true at this stage in the evolution of Frontier as a company.

F9 Buff -
First of all, awesome pictures . . . I've admired your work for years. As for what F9 has to gain with my one list suggestion, see above. Ahh, the 'training replacement cost' argument . . . what's more expensive the 'three training cycles' to move a pilot from the Q400 to the 'Bus, or the incalculable cost of high turnover, low morale and no dedication? I'd use the same argument to counter the suggestion that a separate company is cheaper for the company because they'd pay separate-list Lynx pilots less. Also, keep in mind that a certain number of training cycles are inevitable due to growth and attrition, and some are funded by the aircraft manufacturers.
Other work groups would have to fend for themselves, I'm afraid. I've suggested that the FAs be brought under the FAPA umbrella . . . 'not going to happen' was the response from FAPA. As far as the rest of your points regarding FAPA placing limits on F9's use of Lynx . . . that's called a scope clause, and they're working out the details of our new one right now. According to the company, the scope clause we already have (that bars Lynx) is between FAPA pilots and Frontier Airlines, not Frontier Airlines Holdings. uke: If the last five years of this industry's history haven't proved that scope clauses don't work, I don't know what will. That's exactly the crux of my argument here . . . FAPA's going for scope, scope doesn't work, we need to do something about it right now.

NoJoy -
FAPA has said that they do not want to represent separate-list Lynx pilots due to possible representational conflicts of interest.

 

[F9 Buff]

According to the company, the scope clause we already have (that bars Lynx) is between FAPA pilots and Frontier Airlines, not Frontier Airlines Holdings.

That, I did not know about... I guess they probably don't announce this kind of stuff on the myfrontier site. With that news, I am now kind of worried.

So is the company at all open to this scope that FAPA is trying to get put in with Frontier Holdings or have they denied that one too? Not sure what leverage you guys will have at that point though. I would think FAPA would want to get this taken care of asap. Any time table on this stuff?

If they deny scope then it becomes obvious that the whipsawing can begin when they want. Does F9 become a sinking ship if that happens?

 

[Cardinal]

Hate to state the obvious, but the 70 seat RJ barn door was left open years ago. Admittedly the Q400s carry with them the slippery slope of the holding company shellgame, and have the potential to become a nightmare. Yet let's not start to fry the Lynx pilots in absentia when perfectly viable turbojet flying has also been orphaned.

 

[macdu]

TOGA is right my friends. I have no dog in this fight so to speak but I have been around the patch a few times and let me tell you as anyone will who has been in the 121 arena for the past 18 to 20 years; The company will find a way around just about whatever you throw up at it. If they want this to happen they will fight to win and take no prisoners. The F9 pilots will have to get your lawyers to close all the loopholes in a document that states that all flying is to be done by the F9 pilots on a F9 seniority list if that is what you want, and, if they throw up there arms and say, no way, well, I guess you will know then were you stand.
This regional against mainline crap is old management hat. Just look around guy's at all your buddies elsewhere. APA couldn't stop the RJ's at Eagle and look where those things fly to. Those little orange scope badges proved worthless against a company willing to do whatever it takes to get it. I hate to sound so dire but about the only thing that the company would feel threatened by is a job action. You start shutting the place down if we don't get xyz. Oh, wait a minute I forgot, we are all selfish pilot whores. Your doomed.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

TOGA is right my friends...<snip> APA couldn't stop the RJ's at Eagle and look where those things fly to

We lost 100 lines of flying to Eagle when the F-100's went away. Nearly every Eagle destination used to be an AA F-100 or even a 727.

The "inside-the-Y" K Concourse at ORD used to be all AA gates...now at least 6 of them are Eagle.

A alter-ego airline will be used against you...bet on it. Remember this when the time comes.

Unit
Permanent FO

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Well here it comes. If the compamy is telling you 4 years to upgrade that is also the oldest trick in the book when almost everyone is hiring. Wait tell late next year when UAl, NWA start to hire. I bet they will say 3 years which they will be right becasue it will be obvious by then what they are doing so why not leave to one of the legacys. Almost all the flying out of STL which was done by TWA is now RJ's. The traveling public hates them. F9 always sold the service and nice jets. Well once people start showing up and find out they are on a TP it will piss them off. Remember Potter is the CEO to run the company or profit. So when he asks for a pay freeze, which he as in the new TA make sure you take it, and while your at it see if he want your wife to whore out so make a few extra bucks and maybe you can sell one of your kids kidneys to help him out also. What a bunch of dum Sh$ts to sit back and do nothing.

 

[f9r]

Dude, you really shouldn't go near the computer until you've taken your medication. Getting ready for that Southwest interview?

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Good Luck dude,

F9, You just don't see it. That's ok most of America is stupid too so you are not alone. Let me know how the wage freeze in the TA you never address goes and the slow growth in mainline. I can't wait 12 to 18 months from now to say I told you so. But hey company loyality is big in the airline industy, from managment I mean. I would suggest you get Potters numbers so when you need a loan you can call him at his new job when he moves on to bigger and better deals and gets away from the smoking wreak. Hey F9 let me hear you deny the new TA that will be out in several weeks. Just remember that the senior guys in the union are all Captains so if mainline growth stalls what do they care, its not like they aren't going to move up to the B777. They got everything they need, the left seat. Go ahead and deny it.

 

[climb2slow]

Personally, I think the sooner we can get you off the property things will get better! Your constant positive attitude and stellar personality are just what they need over at SWA. As to the "TA", I guess we shall see about it. Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

 

[OpenClimb]

Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

Which is why the TA will pass. It's not really a "pay reduction" it's just a "pay freeze". For most captains it will be approximately a 2 year pay freeze. For FO's who may upgrade, they'll make 3% less than captains who've gone before. Nevermind that the built-in COLA will not cover even 1/4 of the inflation we'll experience during the life of the contract--or that it will barely bring us back to where we are now. Nevermind that the rest of the industry is on its way back up while we're about to approve a concessionary agreement. Nevermind that we'll also be giving up work rules and basically buying (by trading the ESOP) a very limited retirement plan--that also favors the senior folks.

I'm frequently frustrated, but all of the above is actually fairly predictable. From an objective viewpoint, I have to remind myself that I went to work for Wal-Mart, not Nordstroms. The business plan of an LCC includes _Low Costs_. Whenever the higher-end carriers lower their costs, it redefines low costs which puts downward pressure on LCC's to maintain their cost advantage.

It sucks, but it's true. I realize that all of the above will bring out the "then go somewhere else" comments, but understand that I'm not unhappy to be working for Frontier and I've made a conscious effort to present a positive attitude while I'm at work. The point is that part of not being frustrated by the situation is understanding it and trying to be objective rather than emotional.

I don't know... I guess it works for me.

 

[AnimalTale]

Personally, I think the sooner we can get you off the property things will get better! Your constant positive attitude and stellar personality are just what they need over at SWA. As to the "TA", I guess we shall see about it. Most captains will vote no to anything that amounts to a penny less in compensation, regardless what that means for growth.

LOWPAY is off property, HE is on a LOA.
Pretty soon I hope Purple hires him, for his own sake. Because he seems so miserable and unhappy here.

Scope is important and everybody has valid points. But dont let Lowpay or TOGA fool you, F9 is a temporary stop in their careers. They will move on to SWA, FEDEX and UPS, only to complain about those companies when they are there.

For all you F9 hopefuls, when you do get an interview here, make sure this is the place you want to be. DOnt waste your time interviewing and commutting only to complain and hate your job.

Good Luck & CYA

 

[BlueCanoe]

Get a holdings scope like at RAH. Multiple companies, one list....

Do it....

 

[TOGA]

But dont let Lowpay or TOGA fool you, F9 is a temporary stop in their careers. They will move on to SWA, FEDEX and UPS, only to complain about those companies when they are there.

Well, with that baseless insult, you've proven your own myopia. I actually decided to come to F9 instead of sticking it out in the left seat of an RJ, hoping for 'the next best thing' to come along because I believe in this company. That's precisely why I'm "complaining" so much . . . I want to retire from Frontier Airlines, not sit idly by while my (and your) future is destroyed. Why on earth would I leave 95 hours/month of turbine PIC, take a 25% pay cut, and leave my family five days/week to commute across the country to the bottom a small seniority list when I was in the top 25% of a big one if I considered Frontier a "temporary stop" in my career?! I may be stupid enough to pursue flying for a living, but I'd like to believe I'm not a complete idiot. If Frontier becomes a "temporary stop" in my career, it will be because I've lost faith in our leadership, and I have to do what's best for my family. I really want to sell the house in Ohio, move the family back to Colorado, and live happily ever after. However, I don't feel real confident doing that with these shenanigans going on. That is why I'm "complaining".

 

[AnimalTale]

Well, with that baseless insult, you've proven your own myopia. I actually decided to come to F9 instead of sticking it out in the left seat of an RJ, hoping for 'the next best thing' to come along because I believe in this company. That's precisely why I'm "complaining" so much . . . I want to retire from Frontier Airlines, not sit idly by while my (and your) future is destroyed. Why on earth would I leave 95 hours/month of turbine PIC, take a 25% pay cut, and leave my family five days/week to commute across the country to the bottom a small seniority list when I was in the top 25% of a big one if I considered Frontier a "temporary stop" in my career?! I may be stupid enough to pursue flying for a living, but I'd like to believe I'm not a complete idiot. If Frontier becomes a "temporary stop" in my career, it will be because I've lost faith in our leadership, and I have to do what's best for my family. I really want to sell the house in Ohio, move the family back to Colorado, and live happily ever after. However, I don't feel real confident doing that with these shenanigans going on. That is why I'm "complaining".

I apologize if u feel I was bad mouthing you. Your posts tend to lead me to think you are very pessimistic and downright uncomfortable working for FRONTIER.

Do you think there are 590 "idiot" pilots in front of you on the seniority list? Do you think, you, an EX-EXPRESS JET Pilot, has more wisdom and knowledge about scope than your team members? I DONT THINK SO! Look around you next time you are in the crew lounge. I bet you a majority of pIlots in that room were from Majors and before the Majors, they probably flew for Regionals. They just dont have the "chicken little" attitude you exude.

My brother, your concern is all of our concern. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is have OUR flying SHIFT to an alter-ego airline. Just relax, your attitude is what is going to make Frontier's Culture Sour up. And if you really dont like the commutte or have faith in the airline, dont torture yourself or your family, LEAVE.

Cya

 

[Captain Overs]

Animal Tale your an ***********************************! I think TOGA knows what he's talking about. Do the research on Continental and ExpressJet before you run your piehole. He knows more about scope than most people. Read his previous posts. He was at Expressjet when it was a wholly owned subsidiary of CAL. He lived through the spinoff and saw Expressjet grow while CAL shrunk.

You my friend should do your homework before you start pointing the fingers at someone else.