Frontier Pilots approve concessions 498-58

[Jar Jar]

Hey General Lee good thing you elite aviator guys at DAL are keeping Frontier afloat huh?

If you all hadn't tossed them more flying a few months ago, they might not even had been around to make these concessions. Way to go DAL.

 

[Fubijaakr]

RAH making a good faith effort?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

You guys kill me.

 

[waveflyer]

Hey- IMO saying frontier is dragging down the profession is wrong. They're trying to survive.

But to say that Wn ever dragged down the profession is pretty damn silly also- there was never a time when SWA didn't make pilots millionaires. And it's always had the intangibles that makes it a great place to work. And they've never taken paycuts and still profitable.

I certainly don't financially feel bad for the original SWA pilots- does anyone??

The biggest thing lowering the bar for this industry is outsourcing, hands down. That IS and has been the problem for 2 decades now.

Good luck frontier. You're a great group and wish you were on our list instead of Bedfords, but I think we all know the swa bid was never designed to succeed.

 

[FBN0223]

Hey- IMO saying frontier is dragging down the profession is wrong. They're trying to survive.

But to say that Wn ever dragged down the profession is pretty damn silly also- there was never a time when SWA didn't make pilots millionaires. And it's always had the intangibles that makes it a great place to work. And they've never taken paycuts and still profitable.

I certainly don't financially feel bad for the original SWA pilots- does anyone??

The biggest thing lowering the bar for this industry is outsourcing, hands down. That IS and has been the problem for 2 decades now.

Good luck frontier. You're a great group and wish you were on our list instead of Bedfords, but I think we all know the swa bid was never designed to succeed.

Spot on!! Our slogan at Delta should be, "Why do the flying when another airline can do it for us.". At least our outsourcing is supporting the pilots at RAH.

 

[Dash Power]

Scope. That is the cancer that is killing this profession. American struck for 20 minutes in 1997 in a fight to get the RJ's on the AA seniority list. Their mistake was not getting it on the property with then unacceptable pay rates and negotiate those like they did the B scale with each contract after that. Once they gave the RJ's away, they gave their competition the same pressure to accept RJ's with their scope clauses also.

Now we have Captains flying 110 pax jets flying halfway across the country at half the rates and benefits that a Captain at mainline is earning flying a 130 Pax jets half way across the country.

Knowing the real history of why wages for pilots are the way today, has nothing to do with SWA. If SWA didn't exist wages would be where they are today. Until the "regionals" stand up for the pay they deserve, main line will always be at their mercy.

 

[Dan Roman]

SWA dragged down this profession for Decades. Everybody knows this. Just because they get paid well NOW doesn't mean the damage wasn't done. A smug SWA guy bitching about another pilot group lowering the bar is absolutely laughable.

Bingo.

 

[xkuzme1]

Someone should call Under Cover Boss back for a follow episode.

 

[tomgoodman]

Their mistake was not getting it on the property with then unacceptable pay rates and negotiate those like they did the B scale with each contract after that. Once they gave the RJ's away, they gave their competition the same pressure to accept RJ's with their scope clauses also.

In hindsight, even APA might agree with you now, but it's easy to see why they didn't do it back then. They were just recovering from Crandall's B-scale horror, and didn't ever want a low-wage pilot subgroup in their own bargaining unit again.

 

[waveflyer]

In hindsight, even APA might agree with you now, but it's easy to see why they didn't do it back then. They were just recovering from Crandall's B-scale horror, and didn't ever want a low-wage pilot subgroup in their own bargaining unit again.

Q: What's worse than a low-wage pilot subgroup in your own bargaining unit?

A: Several low-wage pilot subgroups operating for you OUTSIDE your own bargaining unit.

 

[tomgoodman]

Q: What's worse than a low-wage pilot subgroup in your own bargaining unit?

A: Several low-wage pilot subgroups operating for you OUTSIDE your own bargaining unit.

Probably so, but what the winners of a long, costly war fear most is having to re-fight the whole thing, and maybe lose this time. It's hard to mobilize support and sacrifice against new and even worse threats which are but dimly perceived and appear to be safely outside your castle wall.

 

[Tomct]

Good Luck Frontier guys/gals. I hope it works out for you. BB is a total dirt bag!

 

[labbats]

I always liked Frontier. Too bad they've been through the worst during the past few years. I hope we're all wrong and this works out for you all. Not too often you see that much pride in an airline.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Good Luck Frontier guys/gals. I hope it works out for you. BB is a total dirt bag!

And F9 Capts. are making $40 an hour more than yours are. I guess "dirt bag" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[waveflyer]

Probably so, but what the winners of a long, costly war fear most is having to re-fight the whole thing, and maybe lose this time. It's hard to mobilize support and sacrifice against new and even worse threats which are but dimly perceived and appear to be safely outside your castle wall.

Well all the VA, USAIR, applicants are primed to accept those wages bc it IS a step up from their RJ capt gig. There's a reason 2nd year pay is roughly junior RJ capt pay....

It's chess, not checkers. I don't disagree that that's going on Tom- and I won't place you in that category, but isn't that last line of yours a perfect summation of baby-boomer Econ policy in general, an almost flawless example set in the airlines?-
"as long as I don't have to pay, I do not care, but I will violently oppose any long term solution that makes me pay 1 dime towards the long term good, even if I lose more over time bc I've weakened the foundation"

(tired of myopia...chess, not checkers....think long term- it's what counts)

 

[tomgoodman]

... isn't that last line of yours a perfect summation of baby-boomer Econ policy in general, an almost flawless example set in the airlines?-

It was intended as an observation about human nature, neither critical nor defensive of any particular age cohort. Generational chauvinism is an error, as the '60s hippies found out when they grew up.

 

[Tomct]

And F9 Capts. are making $40 an hour more than yours are. I guess "dirt bag" is in the eye of the beholder.

Actually they make $4 hr more than I do, but thanks for trying! And hey, way to try and hijack the thread.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Actually they make $4 hr more than I do, but thanks for trying! And hey, way to try and hijack the thread.

According to APC, today a senior F9 Captain is making $156.
According to APC, today your senior Captain is making $115.

Looks like you need some remedial math, Ace.

Oh and P.S....

Did you ever ask yourself WHY BB could demand concessions from F9 pilots and get them? Its because both parties know he can get people like you to fly their 'Buses for $115 an hour. You prove it every day you go to work.

Chew on that awhile.

 

[StopNTSing]

SWA dragged down this profession for Decades. Everybody knows this. Just because they get paid well NOW doesn't mean the damage wasn't done. A smug SWA guy bitching about another pilot group lowering the bar is absolutely laughable.

Would you like to deal in the here & now, or are you one of the many around here who prefer to dwell in the past?

I'm sorry if my comment seemed flip and offended you or others, but we've all seen this movie and it never ends well. Appeasing management like BB is like trying to appease an alligator. All you buy is a little time....he'll keep coming back for more if he thinks you'll give it. Pilot costs have never shut down an airline, and pilot concessions have never saved one either. Best of luck F9 dudes, you're between a rock and a hard place through no fault of your own. But give-backs aren't going to help at this point.

 

[carl p]

Would you like to deal in the here & now, or are you one of the many around here who prefer to dwell in the past?

I'm sorry if my comment seemed flip and offended you or others, but we've all seen this movie and it never ends well. Appeasing management like BB is like trying to appease an alligator. All you buy is a little time....he'll keep coming back for more if he thinks you'll give it. Pilot costs have never shut down an airline, and pilot concessions have never saved one either. Best of luck F9 dudes, you're between a rock and a hard place through no fault of your own. But give-backs aren't going to help at this point.

Been there. He is right, your concessions will have no factor in whether you ultimately succeed or fail as a company. Best of luck F9!

 

[waveflyer]

It was intended as an observation about human nature, neither critical nor defensive of any particular age cohort. Generational chauvinism is an error, as the '60s hippies found out when they grew up.

It's only as accurate as any broad generalization- but overall- look around and see the state of the country. The teenage 60's hippies are who I'm talking about.
Greatest generation gave birth to the most short sighted and selfish.