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Frontier guys: it's slipping away from you

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GuppyWN said:
AA,

Man I'm trying to be diplomatic here. Work with me!

I love F9. Used to fly for them and I wish NOTHING bad to come of them - as long as my current wife and kids (SWA) doesn't get hurt. I get defensive when you mess with MY family.

I made the sacrifice almost 10 years ago to quit Frontier. I gave up seniority. I gave up security for starting over, once again, at the bottom of SWA's list so I could EARN seniority the old fashioned way - growth and retirements.

This is not a merger. This is a purchase.

Therefore I just don't see why any Frontier pilot, who CHOSE to stay at Frontier at any time or especially when the future started getting cloudy, deserves ONE SINGLE SENIORITY NUMBER ahead of the very last SWA pilot.

Gup
Click to expand...

That was diplomatic, and I will do my best to reply in kind.

Why should the very last SWA pilot benefit?

What if FAPA provided an accelerated upgrade and a guarantee never to be furloughed? Would that be enough?
 
Not even close to the same, Sheared.

shearedshaft said:
I edited it so it makes sense. Midwest guys watched her sing too. They're doing great.

I would take the bird in the hand, but then again, I know what you guys would be missing out on.
Click to expand...

We would have f'ed the fat lady in the rear to have a Southwest option.
 
scarlet said:
FEDERAL LAW they can not staple anymore=do some homework!
Click to expand...

Sure they can. Frontier pilots agree to a staple, or they agree that the deal shouldn't be done.

The CEO of SWA has stated publically that he won't require SWAPA to deal with arbitration, so good luck to those who think they have some other choice.
 
It's a date of hire shuffle of the deck. That's the law. Even Southwest isn't above it.

On another note to StaySeated...How are those "accelerated upgrades" going these days?
 
I have no dog whatsoever in this.

That said it is disheartening to watch the "I got mine" attitude trotted out once again. What a messed up system we operate under where it is considered fair for an experienced Captain to start all over again at the bottom just because he made the grievous mistake of picking the wrong company to work for. This is nothing new it's been the same since the days of Ernest Gann. That doesn't make it right.
 
Tanker Clown said:
It's a date of hire shuffle of the deck. That's the law. Even Southwest isn't above it.

On another note to StaySeated...How are those "accelerated upgrades" going these days?
Click to expand...

I understand that you are a total idiot and you have my sympathies.

If SWA adds 40 airframed during a time they were originaly planning on shrinking, upgrades would be "accelerated".
 
ackattacker said:
I have no dog whatsoever in this.

That said it is disheartening to watch the "I got mine" attitude trotted out once again. What a messed up system we operate under where it is considered fair for an experienced Captain to start all over again at the bottom just because he made the grievous mistake of picking the wrong company to work for. This is nothing new it's been the same since the days of Ernest Gann. That doesn't make it right.
Click to expand...

what is your answer? national list? the stronger carrier gives DOH or relative seniority?

mergers are ugly and pretty much always will be due to the seniority based system under which we operate. I can empathize with your feeling but unless you have a better system, take it easy on your high horse.
 
firstthird said:
what is your answer? national list? the stronger carrier gives DOH or relative seniority?

mergers are ugly and pretty much always will be due to the seniority based system under which we operate. I can empathize with your feeling but unless you have a better system, take it easy on your high horse.
Click to expand...

I don't have an answer. Maybe national seniority list I suppose. But ultimately I feel that during a merger some sort of relative seniority is appropriate, stapling is an obvious F-you.
 
Morris was stapled. they were 2 years old. SWA was 20 some. some didn't have types or 1000 pic. etc.

there are plenty of arguments in this thread about how 'fair and equitable' can be determined and staple might fit the bill. but I hope we don't find out. arbitrators determine fair and equitable and according to our CEO the deal is off if FAPA & SWAPA can't decide on an SLI before that.
 
F9 guys, take the Republic deal so you don't have to go to LBB!

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
GuppyWn, tell us your opinion what should happen to F9 furloughs.

Most of the furloughs had an interview very similar to LUV and had the same experience minus the type rating.
 
shearedshaft said:
I edited it so it makes sense. Midwest guys watched her sing too. They're doing great.

I would take the bird in the hand, but then again, I know what you guys would be missing out on.
Click to expand...

If 94 more of your fellow pilots took the bird in the hand that was offered in your recent TA you would be bending over for a SLI wearing a sandpaper rubber. Fortunately, enough of your pilots had the vision and judgment not to sell out for marginally improved rates and chump change retro.

scarlet said:
FEDERAL LAW they can not staple anymore=do some homework!
Click to expand...

Jeez, you need to STFU. If you spent only ten minutes reading other posts about this you would know that Kelley has said the deal was dead unless they had a labor agreement in hand. Try lurking more.
 
I bet SWA doesn't furlough a single pilot from F9 if we go ahead with this. I know they are returning 11 airframes but...I bet Boeing has those 11 737's ready to replace those 11 Airbuses on the SWA side...and guess who flies them. F9 pilots who would come over first. Mark my words...F9 guys will be taken care of if an agreement can be reached. We all worked very hard to get away from Republic, ASA, Mesa, ETC...nothing against the guys there, but we all know those are not the career airlines we all want to work for. SWA takes care of their people, and F9 pilots will be taken care of.

I know F9 people would rather keep everything as is, but that won't happen. Given the options, I would make a deal with SWA any way I could over Republic. The Republic deal seems good on the surface (keep F9 going), but ask Midwest guys how that's turning out for them. SWA management has yet to screw an employee group over...they are good negotiators, fierce competitors, and take advantage of opportunities, yet they have taken care of their internal people too. Republic can't say the same thing.
 
Agree to an expedited timeline for seniority integration. A period of negotiations, followed by arbitration by a three man panel if necessary with a date certain integrated seniority list that is fair and equitable by either DCC or SOC. Certainly no one should have a problem with a fair and equitable list. It's a fair process, with the goal of a fair list with logic and reason prevailing over emotion and greed.
 
njcapt said:
If 94 more of your fellow pilots took the bird in the hand that was offered in your recent TA you would be bending over for a SLI wearing a sandpaper rubber. Fortunately, enough of your pilots had the vision and judgment not to sell out for marginally improved rates and chump change retro..
Click to expand...

Actually, had the TA passed, we would have scope language that disallowed all domestic codeshare, but would have allowed Lynx to continue to operate, but get this, pay attention..here it comes, you missed it the first time around...wouldn't allow Lynx or Frontier to grow.

Get that? The TA protected SWAPA from Lynx taking over routes, they would have been capped. Instead, the TA got turned down, we gave the raises back to the company.

The company took 1/3 of our raises that we handed back, and bought (or is buying, who knows) Frontier. There is no cap on domestic codeshare, and no specific cap for Lynx, so they can sell them to Republic and we can watch SWAPA jobs go to the turboprop.

So, yes, turning the TA down was not a stellar deal.
 
Here is the word

Fellow Pilots,

Southwest Airlines made SWAPA aware of their intent to withdraw their bid to purchase Frontier Holdings if an agreement between SWAPA and FAPA could not be reached by midnight, EST on the 12th. Tonight SWAPA has reached an impasse with the Frontier Airline Pilots’ Association. Both parties have bargained all evening under a deadline for resolution for midnight (EST). At the deadline, neither party was willing to accept the other’s proposal. Southwest Airlines will petition the bankruptcy court for an extension on the Company’s final bid for Frontier tomorrow morning
 

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